BW and Dave,
I was busy writing when the internet connection died.
And maybe that's a good thing, because Dave explained it far more succinctly than the explanation i was struggling with.
So the basics.
From the top down, and assume that middle C is C4.

Soprano
Alto
Tenor
Bass

4 parts, and the building blocks for harmony, and part writing.
For the following assume one semibreve/wholenote per bar.
First chord C major consisting of (bottom up) : Bass voice C3. Tenor Voice G3.
Alto voice E4. Soprano voice G4.
Next bar.
G major chord consisting of (bottom up) : Bass voice G3. Tenor voice B3. Alto Voice D4. Soprano Voice G4.

In this basic example you can see Dave's point of contrary motion.
The bass voice goes up from C3 to G3. The Alto voice goes down from E4 to D4.
This is considered a strong motion. Note the soprano voice can stay the same as G4 is common to both chords. (This a common trick of Beethoven's, and if you play this cadence with strings, you'll hear the strength of leaving the soprano voice as is. Use the example of the introduction of Ludwig's 7th, and you'll hear quite clearly the common note in the upper voices (either Alto or Soprano) sustained in pitch and voice for more than one bar.)

I very respectfully suggest BW, that you invest in two books. Harmony and Counterpoint. (A third book to add is part writing.)
These will, if you decide to purchase, become important reference books on your musical journey, and will prove invaluable time after time.
Dave has also pointed you in the right direction for guidance and study. Whatever Bach wrote, he understood the construction of 4 part writing, (and invention) and listening and studying to the Chorales will prove invaluable.

Good luck and my regards,

Alex.

@PaulR said:

Brahms. Huh. Typical Taurus!

[:D]

You're say that a typical Tauras is a musical genius?

What sign are you again?

DC


Ummm - Taurus. [:O]ops: [:O]ops: [:O]ops:

BW,
You'll also no doubt see in the example i gave, that in the second chord (G) the bass note and soprano note end up in octaves. This isn't a good idea (generally) as it weakens the structure, although many composers past and present have broken this rule with varying results. I gave it as a basic example of contrary motion.
I don't know if you understand the principle of inversions, so i'll give a brief example.

A three note C chord in ROOT position consists of: C4,E4,G4.
A three note C chord in 1ST inversion consists of: E4,G4,C5.
A three note C chord in 2ND inversion consists of: G4,C5,E5.

When you begin constructing your 4 part harmony, and you wish a smooth transition from one note to another it's good to remember inversions.
The example i gave for contrary motion was as follows.
1st chord: C3 G3 E4 G4
2nd Chord G3 B3 D4 G4

The bass is doubled in octaves with the soprano line.
Alternatives?
1st chord: C3 G3 E4 G4
2nd chord: B2 G3 D4 G4

You'll note that the bass line has gone down to the third of G. This is quite common in earlier music, but should be used wisely. Also note that your next chord because of the B2 could be C major again or A minor. (The minor of C)

Regards,
Alex.

No worries Paul, we already knew your sign and your genius.

British keyboard players you know? You guys f***ing ROCK! (and write a decent ditty as well.)

DC

Paul,
I've never seen a more blatant attempt to elicit attention!
And there's me thinking Taureans were calm, patient, types.

Certainly blown that illusion out of the water!

Regards,

Alex.

(Not Taurean)
[H]

Ok....I'm starting to understand what you all are talking about.

I'm actually quite new to all of this. I've been teaching myself how to orchestrate/compose and how to use VSL/midi/Cubase for the past year now and I believe the reason I find it so fascinating is because it seems as if there's almost a limitless supply of information to take in. Which obviously leaves room for limitless experience and growth.

That being said, I am still learning how to read music, though it is not as difficult as I had first feared. I'm pretty sure that most of my sketches make use of part writing. Though it maybe only two parts, Bass and Treble. I'll have to get alto and tenor in there I suppose!

thanks again, you guys have been extremely helpful!

-BW

Haha! You guys are such cards. roll:

No - it's the paint fumes. Whoa!

Horse Opera would also do well to look at Bach's Brandenberg No 3 : Although obviously baroque in stature - well worth looking at for it's construction and all round joviality of composition. Perhaps one of the great works of genius of all time. It's like Bach is patting himself on his stomach with a good drink and good company around him, whenever I hear that particular work.

They make very good bankers Alex - but how would I know. Hahah!

BW,
2 Parts is a good start, don't knock it or think you're not keeping up. Many fine composers wrote two part harmony on more than one occasion and made it sound good. In fact, you're starting at the right end, not trying to write for full orchestra at once.
Why don't you try this?
Write 2 part in the bass and treble clef. Take a good look at middle C, and for the practise, write the 3rd part as close to that as possible. you'd be surprised how musical it can sound.
When you're comfortable with that, introduce a 4th part, but only occasionally, when the bass and treble parts go further apart. I know this seems simplistic, but it's a good way to keep the harmony clean, and understand when and where to add more, and take away. Remember that notes written close together sound better in the treble clef than the bass. (A very general statement, but a good place to start).
A natural way to understand how close notes can be together, according to pitch, is to look at and study The Harmonic Scale. You'l find it in Rimsky Korsakov principles of orchestration on page 67 under the heading Distribution of notes in chords. In that section you'll also see useful tips for chord structure and things to be avoided.
That section is contained in Chapter 3 'Harmony'. Very useful stuff, and you'll see examples of Close and widely spaced part writing. When you've read this section, try it out on your Sequencer, and hear it while you're looking at it. Makes a big difference to understanding what's going on.

Regards,

Alex.

@PaulR said:

Horse Opera would also do well to look at Bach's Brandenberg No 3 :

Actually the Brandenburg Concertos were some of the first things I listened to, I'll have to revisit them...

-BW

ps- I just checked and I only have 4-6, off to the library I go!

So Paul,
Not content with the usual Taurean characteristics, you've introduced one of your own.

Sniffing Magnolia!

[H]

@PaulR said:

Haha! You guys are such cards. [8-)]

No - it's the paint fumes. Whoa!

Hey I wasn't kidding. I know you're a financial genius and I've heard your B3 playing. Wicked in that British way (say hi to Keith for me.) None of us are in Ludwig's league but we each have a little of that I hope. [:)]

Now have a bit of tea son and breathe some fresh air and sit down and stay down.

Aquarius here (Mozart's sign)

Gotta say - really good posts from Dave and Alex here. I quietly learn a lot from this kind of thing and am prepared to admit it. Horse Opera couldn't ask for more than that.

Dave - you should know that Taureans don't believe in the stars - that's why they're Taureans. Hmmm - is that a paradox? [:D]

Hehe - when I went to college in London, I shared for 2 years with an Aquarius - and he was definitely the financial genius - not me that's for sure.

No one is better than Keith! You are in a stronger position to say hello to KE than I am Dave - I think he lives mostly in the US these days after a very messy divorce and ensuing financial mayhem. I bet he doesn't have to paint his house though!

Anyway, back to the grind - and don't expect little treats like this too often!


[:D]

@PaulR said:

Dave - you should know that Taureans don't believe in the stars - that's why they're Taureans. Hmmm - is that a paradox? [:D] [:D]

I thought you were a big fan of stars? Not even William Holden?

DC

HB didn't write one, did he?

He didn't play the piano either.

And he's still considered one of the great orchestrators - what a hero!!!

@hermitage59 said:

BW,
2 Parts is a good start, don't knock it or think you're not keeping up.

I wrote 8 WHOLE bars with a Cello and Viola last night! Then I tried adding the Violins and I TOTALLY FAILED!! HA. No, I will keep trying. This is actually a great exercise. It's quite humbling because for a second I thought I was getting good with Opus 1, and maybe I was, but I think I need to concentrate on this for a little while before going back to bigger orchestras. It seems pretty invaluable.

-BW

@hermitage59 said:

BW,
2 Parts is a good start, don't knock it or think you're not keeping up.

I wrote 8 WHOLE bars with a Cello and Viola last night! Then I tried adding the Violins and I TOTALLY FAILED!! HA. No, I will keep trying. This is actually a great exercise. It's quite humbling because for a second I thought I was getting good with Opus 1, and maybe I was, but I think I need to concentrate on this for a little while before going back to bigger orchestras. It seems pretty invaluable.

-BW

What you could try Horse, is instead of doing it right out with the solo string choir, doing it with just 4 part piano first - that was maybe already suggested. If it sounds good that way, then maybe you could then start to substitute each individual piano part with Cello, Viola and the 2 Violins.

One way to maybe get started without getting way ahead of ourselves here - is to use the cello and viola as a sort of driving engine. I remember years ago, sitting in on a quartet and the judge saying afterwards how well the cello knitted everything together. Of course, he was being constructive and well meaning - in actual fact it was a dreadful racket, but that's of no matter. I personally feel that writing a dreadful racket every now and again has great benefits and can do the world of good. But anyway........

Then make statements with a violin - sort of like a question - and then answer that statement with the second violin. Kind of like they're having a conversation. Sometimes it sounds like 2 people talking at once when listening to string quartets - but there again, I don't listen to half as much music as I should do. [H]

I thought about writing it with piano first, and I may end up doing that, but I was too excited to start my first quartet, I needed to actually hear the instruments.

I think I will spend the day listening to some of the greats and try to rip them off the best I can. Which is what all great composers do, right? [[;)]]

-BW

@Horse Opera said:

I think I will spend the day listening to some of the greats and try to rip them off the best I can. Which is what all great composers do, right? [[;)]]

-BW

Yes - absolutely!

"HB didn't write one, did he?

He didn't play the piano either.

And he's still considered one of the great orchestrators - what a hero!!! "
- JohnA

That's true, though Berlioz was a very unusual person. He's also considered one of the major revolutionaries in the whole history of music, since his Symphonie Fantastique completely altered the course of the symphony's development. He also once conducted a concert with 1000 performers, using a sword as a baton. That's MY kind of conductor! Forget these limpwristed little wimps today. Has anyone read his Memoirs? That is one of the most entertaining books on music ever.

Alex’s great comments got me thinking about what might help you and others in your shoes. Two part soprano and bass writing is really a basic key to good part writing. As you've found out, just those two parts will generally define a composition, so it runs to reason that when you are harmonizing a melody (soprano), the next thing you would do is write the bass line making sure it is consistent with "the rules:"

Motion

In considering linear movement between two parts, voices can move together in the same general direction (parallel motion), in different directions (contrary motion), and one part moving while the other stays or repeats the same note (oblique motion).

You will rarely run into trouble writing contrary and oblique motions. You might frequently want to write in parallel motion though, but will need to understand what to watch out for. It’s important to note that parallel motion refers to any two notes moving in the same general direction, not just two of the same interval. For example, c and g (fifth) moving up to d and b (sixth), or consecutively to d and a (fifth) are both parallel movements, the later type being an important distinction when the consecutive intervals are a fifth, octave, or unison, which should all be avoided.

Spacing

You will rarely get into much trouble writing in two parts, soprano and bass, because the voices are far enough apart in register not to conflict. When adding alto and tenor parts however, it will be important to keep track of how far apart the notes are spaced. While some suggest that there should be no more than an octave distance between any two adjacent upper parts (soprano and alto, or alto and tenor), you will probably have better results limiting that distance to a sixth. Because of acoustical principals, some suggest that any distance is okay between the tenor and bass voices, but you may be happier with your results if you keep the distance no greater than an octave.

Voice Leading

The next step is to combine the concepts of motion and spacing into how all these voices move in time, sometimes called voice leading. A good goal is to write lines which when taken by themselves show both interest and independence. Generally the upper voices will move mostly by steps and an occasional small skip, while the bass line will reflect more frequent and wider skips. The important thing to note here is that the voices shouldn’t cross each other. It’s hard to describe without notation, but say the bass is on c and the tenor is a fifth above at g. if the tenor moves up a step to a, and the bass jumps up an octave to c, that’s a voice crossing problem (where if the bass went no higher than the tenor’s a, everything is cool). It’s also important to note that ALL the rules apply to ALL the partsjust because there aren’t parallel fifths between the alto and tenor lines doesn’t mean that they’re okay between the soprano and tenor, for example (they’re just harder to catch sometimes).

As all the musical examples above are great, your goal is part continuity over time. It does no good to write great parts for two bars only to have to break the rules in the third to get out of a jam. Students often have trouble getting this continuity down when referring to longer pieces, so nearly everyone learning this stuff “gets” to go through the Bach chorales as Dave suggested above. They will not only teach continuity, but Bach remained creatively faithful to the rules so you can depend upon them. If you don’t want to buy the book, just go to the library (or maybe search the internet) and photocopy a few to get started. Copy the choral melody to whatever you use for notation and then don’t look at Bach’s harmonization until you have finished with your own. Then go back and compare the two and voila - you will be amazed at what you learn!