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Hi!
I found that trills in DS SYnzd are not such playable as in VIPro version. As you can listen in att. files, the best way to make trill in VIPro version is keep pressed one note and periodically press another note. It is not possible in SYnzd (or what option I need to activate for it?). Also it seems like a bug if I try to play half trill in VIPro sequencer on notes H and E.
Hi V ad im
holding one key permanently is not recommended, also not in VI.
The performance trills are based on multiple variations of the same interval samples, and holding one key permanently will trigger always the same interval sample in one direction. The other key which is performed will trigger the variations. So depending which key you have fixed either all up or all down intervalsamples are not altered. So a real performed trill on a keyboard will offer the best results.
best
Herb
In real violins players also keep pressed one string, it can be allowed that one of sounds is not changes :) Ok, but as you can listen examples, the result of playing trill by periodically pressing 2 notes in both cases is very viscosity.. what parameters I must change for the result (speed and clearity) of manual playing of trills was same as if I keep one note pressed or if I use VIPro sequencer? (I found, that humanize delay affects, but sound is sluggish even if I set humanize to 0. If user must to tweak humanize, attack, release only for one articulation, it seems not usable, not 'plug-n-play')
"In real violins players also keep pressed one string, it can be allowed that one of sounds is not changes :) " - v ad im
That is not true. It is only the pitch that is the same, not the audio. A digital sample of a single note is the exact same waveform but a live performance is a different one every time. That is what the correctly played performance trill is representing. They work very well for doing this and allow varying speeds of trills.
The way to create a performance trill is either play one on the keyboard with slight overlap of all the notes or program one with slightly overlapping note values. It is desirable as well to use some humanization in both timing and velocity.
Hi V ad im
holding one key permanently is not recommended, also not in VI.
The performance trills are based on multiple variations of the same interval samples, and holding one key permanently will trigger always the same interval sample in one direction. The other key which is performed will trigger the variations. So depending which key you have fixed either all up or all down intervalsamples are not altered. So a real performed trill on a keyboard will offer the best results.best
Herb
To expand on Maestro Herb's post here, I would add that sometimes the holding down the lower note of the trill may appear to render a more even-sounding trill, but it is in fact less realistic AND less flexible than playing a well-performed trill. Yes it might sound more even (a good thing) but it sacrifices some key elements.
My unsolicited advice:
A well-performed trill should have some shape to it, meaning that there are (for lack of a better term) micro crescendos within a turn or trill that help propell the phrase (unless of course, it is a purposefully marked/intended decrescendo). That crescendo usually comes from the lower note more so than the upper! So, you want to have those repeated lower notes, each with a slightly different "feel" or "landing" to them which would mimic a professional playing a nice, tight trill.
Another tip is temporarily taking your tempo to larghissimo, zooming in on your trill, and seeing which notes make it sound like a dotted rhythm, adjust the midi, then put the tempo back where it was. That might help smooth things out.
Or, if you are using VI Pro, the APP Sequencer has preprogramed trills! These are GREAT! So if someone can't play a super tight trill, in the APP Sequencer in VI Pro you could trigger a super tight trill with your toe... or nose... or... what ever appendage isn't in use at that moment. 😎
EDIT: also implement humanize like William said!
These are GREAT!
These are GREAT!
In the sequencer, you can edit the midi notes... that's what I'd do... make it immitate the other ones. Or, consider using one of the sul patches.
It *IS* possible to play natural trills by hand in the SY player. I do it all the time! 😊
Regardless as to arguments about what is right or best or whatever, like the OP I find the difference here to be a loss of useful functionality and would appreciate an option to restore that behavior.
Hi V ad im
holding one key permanently is not recommended, also not in VI.
The performance trills are based on multiple variations of the same interval samples, and holding one key permanently will trigger always the same interval sample in one direction. The other key which is performed will trigger the variations. So depending which key you have fixed either all up or all down intervalsamples are not altered. So a real performed trill on a keyboard will offer the best results.best
Herb
To expand on Maestro Herb's post here, I would add that sometimes the holding down the lower note of the trill may appear to render a more even-sounding trill, but it is in fact less realistic AND less flexible than playing a well-performed trill. Yes it might sound more even (a good thing) but it sacrifices some key elements.
My unsolicited advice:
A well-performed trill should have some shape to it, meaning that there are (for lack of a better term) micro crescendos within a turn or trill that help propell the phrase (unless of course, it is a purposefully marked/intended decrescendo). That crescendo usually comes from the lower note more so than the upper! So, you want to have those repeated lower notes, each with a slightly different "feel" or "landing" to them which would mimic a professional playing a nice, tight trill.
Another tip is temporarily taking your tempo to larghissimo, zooming in on your trill, and seeing which notes make it sound like a dotted rhythm, adjust the midi, then put the tempo back where it was. That might help smooth things out.
Or, if you are using VI Pro, the APP Sequencer has preprogramed trills! These are GREAT! So if someone can't play a super tight trill, in the APP Sequencer in VI Pro you could trigger a super tight trill with your toe... or nose... or... what ever appendage isn't in use at that moment. 😎
EDIT: also implement humanize like William said!
This remains a key stumbling point with Synchron player for me and others - the performance trills are not playable as they were in VI Pro.
I think both pieces of advice above are simply wrong. Herb made a product that had trill retriggering, then 'improved' it by removing it. Whether or not the same sample gets triggered is a (changeable) property of how the software works. And the idea above of a 'real performed trill' on an electronic keyboard is too narrow and inflexible.
A piano (and marimba/vibes etc) performs trills as decribed. And when triggering a piano/vibe/marimba sample no keyboardist would leave the lower finger down - they would rearticulate.
But almost all of the other instruments we are trying to perform with samples do not articulate each note of a trill. On a wind instrument you hold down some keys for the lower note, then add and remove the key for the higher note while blowing continuously. On a stringed instrument you leave your finger down for the lower note and then add and remove the finger for the higher note while bowing continuously. There is no such thing as 'landing' the lower note - the finger(s) for it remain down.
Legato retriggering for playing trills is a standard keyboard (not piano) technique as old as using electronic keyboards for non-piano sounds (e.g. monophonic synths emulating winds and strings). You are essentially taking away a performance technique that many electronic and computer keyboardists have honed for decades. When emulating winds and strings, performing trills by leaving the lower note down yields a much more realistic sounding performance.
Please stop the rationalization and fix this (make it an option for those that want the 'new improved' way).
Thanks,
Your customer
Re RichHickey
Say a trumpet player has a C5 to D5 trill. An open to first valve trill.
Is the same amount of air used on each of those notes?
Re RichHickey
Say a trumpet player has a C5 to D5 trill. An open to first valve trill.
Is the same amount of air used on each of those notes?
Look, if you want to shape every note of a trill nothing about this feature existing will stop you - simply don't use it.
OTOH the lack of this feature stops every keyboardist who has ever played a monosynth or software VI, including VSL's VI Pro, from using a common technique.
