Hi littlewierdo

Sorry I fear I could not really understand what or whom exactly you are answering (especially Point 4 but that seems not that important for the main subjkect of this topic). So I try to answer some of your points.

I also do not really understand, what the decision to use VSL as additional or Main orchestral Library have to do with the Player one uses. I personally use currently the Synchron-Libraries as my main Core-Libraries adding VI-Libraries where ever it is necessary. But we all know and no one will ever dispute that  everyone will develop his very personal setup and workflow.  But that will of course be no reason for any developer to stop any development.

Concerning the humanization-discussion: It was just my humble assumption, why VSL doesn't provide any humanization-feature yet. I may be wrong but to me it still seem to be a convincing argument, that a single aberration aplied simultaneously exactly in the same way to a whole section, might be not what this feature originally way made for. Perhaps anyone of VSL could help to make this point more clear for us all, if I am wrong.

However, I think there is no need for any concerns, that VI will disapear that soon. No one is kept from buying and using the large variety of good Libraries in VI-Format. But you are right, the Synchron-Series does not yet seem to be complete, so it would not surprise me, if the next releases to come will be likewise Synchron-Releases. And I believe a constructive and concrete discussion about what users like to see in their Sample-Player will help VSL to bring their Users what they are looking for. As I am sure the Synchron-Player will have still be develoiped further to satisfy most of the possible Users in their needs.

In any way keep positive I think there is more than enough reason for 😉

@Another User said:

"I slept and woke up pretty well 😉 No one is the "cranky" one and I fear this question even does not contribute anything reasonable here."

Now read point 4 again.

This conversation isnt about Synchron and whether it should be used or not. The incomplete libraries and feature differences will be filled out. The conversation is about users who prefer VI over Synchron for many reasons, many of which have been listed, and the many users who want Vienna to continue to develop both product lines, not just Synchron, as they have done the past year.

You seem to be arguing that (despite the missing features and missing libraries - for purposes of this discussion, lets assume they both had the same features and complete libraries) Synchron is a better product. What I am telling you is, there are people who prefer VI, purely because the UI works for them.

I have mentioned before, but its worth stating again, when the UI gets in the way of my producing, for whatever reason, even if it is my own hangups, it doesnt matter how good a sound library is. Such is the case with Synchron. Both VI and Synchron could be at parody, that is, both having complete libraries and the same feature set, and the UI in Synchron just doesnt work for me. Nothing will change that except perhaps using Synchron more to get used to it... which leads me to another point...

Being that the sound libraries are completely seperate doesnt really help me use Synchron more. All of the products offered for Synchron, with exception to the orchestra one they just released (and I purchased) are all out of my price range, which also doesnt help. Personally, I dont understand the difference between the two, other than, one has a terrible UI with missing functionality and lacking libraries (which I understand will be eventuallly added) and the other (VI) has all the features and libraries for my taste.

Also a bit confusing, given the above, I already have the Special Edition libraries, I dont understand why I am paying $100 for those libraries to be synchro'd, other than some of the effects are really nice (the only reason I paid for the recent orchestra thingy they just released).

@Another User said:

Being that the sound libraries are completely seperate doesnt really help me use Synchron more. All of the products offered for Synchron, with exception to the orchestra one they just released (and I purchased) are all out of my price range, which also doesnt help. Personally, I dont understand the difference between the two, other than, one has a terrible UI with missing functionality and lacking libraries (which I understand will be eventuallly added) and the other (VI) has all the features and libraries for my taste.

Also a bit confusing, given the above, I already have the Special Edition libraries, I dont understand why I am paying $100 for those libraries to be synchro'd, other than some of the effects are really nice (the only reason I paid for the recent orchestra thingy they just released).

I think that the major reason to introduce the synchron-concept is not the transformation of exsiting libraries into synchronized ones (meanwhile that would imho make many things easier for instance for the Dimension-Series). The main reason as I understood are even much more detailed, mach nore powerfull Libraries, than those we already have in VI-Format, as the Synchron-Strings I or Synchron Percussion I provide already in their first Volumes so incredible much more than the corresponding VI Libraries (Orchestryl Strings I, and Orchestral Percussions.

In so far I personally understand, why VSL does not stick with an old concept but introduce a more powerful and more focussed one to make it possible to musically reasonably handle much more of important details of the sound. But you are right this is at the same time a challenge for the user to explore and learn the new power and adapt it to his own workflow.

At least I am glad that you found with the smart orchestra a product suitable for your needs and already found out some feature which are inspiring for you. However the fact the the development of Synchron-Series is just starting to be released, while the development of VI has already come to a point which does not allow in essential aspects as much improvement as the new concept makes me (even if I apreciate the existing libraries as we all do here) just arguing for staying open minded for the new to come,

About humanization I'm really surprised reading (insistently) so misleading statements:

- is maybe Synchron player supposed to run sections only? Well not at all! Smart Orchestra has solos already... so humanization is requested in Synchron indeed...

- of course humanization pitch shift has limited use in standard sections playback but only if used in an ignorant (or simply default) way. If used properly, (it has several features for using different curves and customized delay) it can improve the realism creating subtle time and pitch difference in any section of the strings orchestra, and acting as an "attack modulator".

It was just my humble assumption (no "statement" as you put it), since as far as I know the "humanization"-Feature was introduced with the Dimensions-Serie where recordings of the single players of an ensemble constitute the sound ot the whole ensemble and in this context it seems to me at least from its Idea most plausible, since the small detuned abberations of the humanization-feature makes (as far as I understood) sens as far they provide that always changing small detune-effecxts you hear only you in the ensemble which is playing the same note but for small individual intonation-differences produce those phaseshifting effects we associate with orchestral section-sounds.

For solo-instruments there is as I understand it no reason to produce those differences since the natural human attack is already recorded with the violinist who plays the tones who makes our patches. The problems only began if you double this soloist and get exactly the same human abberations twice when you let play the same note with the same patch simultaneaously, which would not produce the wanted ensemble phaseshift As far as I understood the traditional way to avoid any machine-effects for single instruments is round robin. So even if the smart orchestra includes Solo-patches, it still does not include dimension-series-instruments and does not have that much need for dimension-series features.

Nevertheless I would wellcome to have the dimension strings in Synchron-Player and if they would ever do so, I expect they will also introduce the humanisation-feature to. But that is of course all just my personal guess and only one point of view among others which one might contribute to this discussion here.

And I am sure the people of VSL are much more able to give you the reason, why neither the percussion, nor the piano, the section-strings  nor the smart-orchestra seemed to make it necessary for them to introduce this feature. I at least strongly believe, that if they would have had any good reason to do so, they would have done already. But if you think they dont, feel free to 'teach' them what you think you know better than the VSL-Developpers.

@fahl5 said:

 But if you think they dont, feel free to 'teach' them what you think you know better than the VSL-Developpers.

This is actually what you constantly did, not me. Actually you do it in this case also, since they implemented the feature in VI, and so according your expert advice, they had not to do it. 

Quote from VI Pro Manual:

"The Humanize Area creates something wonderful: Human Imperfection. From subtle changes in intonation to simulating stressinduced tuning corrections and slightly un-tight rhythmic passages: Random patterns produce authenticity, be it in the string, woodwind or brass section. Additionally to these fixed variations, you can influence the intensity of the tuning curves and delay settings to create an even more random effect with real-time controllers."

On the other side, if you are the only one with a different opinion from several other people, probably there is a reason... find your favorite one, respectfully if you can.

@Another User said:

On the other side, if you are the only one with a different opinion from several other people, probably there is a reason... find your favorite one, respectfully if you can.

Since the decision what feature should be included is not mine you should say that to the VSL-Developpers.

However in a discussion since everybody just talks for himself, no one is ever more or less "the only one" as no one in a rormal discussion need, could and should ever pretend to talk for anyone else but for himself. In short: you have your Ideas I do have mine. I respect yours so I can't see any rational reason why you should not be able to respect mine.

So please try finally to keep this discussion being concentrated on the subject and prevent it to become personal again.

@fatis12_24918 said:

Quote from VI Pro Manual:

"The Humanize Area creates something wonderful: Human Imperfection. From subtle changes in intonation to simulating stressinduced tuning corrections and slightly un-tight rhythmic passages: Random patterns produce authenticity, be it in the string, woodwind or brass section. Additionally to these fixed variations, you can influence the intensity of the tuning curves and delay settings to create an even more random effect with real-time controllers."

And what exactly do you want to teach us with that quotation ?

Well, again it's not me teaching anything. It's the VSL team writing the manual. They teach us what's humanization for. I don't see in this paragraph any restriction to the Dimension string solo players only, that was your personal interpretation, not VSL intention.  Of course Dimension Strings is the perfect application of it, but it's not the only one for so obvious reason we already explained: just use good sense and creativity and you will (maybe) understand.

@fatis12_24918 said:

Quote from VI Pro Manual:

"The Humanize Area creates something wonderful: Human Imperfection. From subtle changes in intonation to simulating stressinduced tuning corrections and slightly un-tight rhythmic passages: Random patterns produce authenticity, be it in the string, woodwind or brass section. Additionally to these fixed variations, you can influence the intensity of the tuning curves and delay settings to create an even more random effect with real-time controllers."

And what exactly do you want to teach us with that quotation ?

Well, again it's not me teaching anything. It's the VSL team writing the manual. They teach us what's humanization for. I don't see in this paragraph any restriction to the Dimension string solo players only, that was your personal interpretation, not VSL intention.  Of course Dimension Strings is the perfect application of it, but it's not the only one for so obvious reason we already explained: just use good sense and creativity and you will (maybe) understand.

I still cant see in your quotation any statement by the VSL about the synchron player and the certain needs of the currently in Synchron Format available Libraries.

I also realy dont understand why you are introducing the term "restriction" here in this discussion about VI and Synchron-Player?

What means to sum up: Sorry but I cant still figure out what exactly you want to teach us or the VSL or who ever, but please dont care that much about, since I still believe what ever it might be it will scarcly change my or any ones appreciation for the great VI-Products or curiosity for the Synchron-Products to come.

And what counts after all in my humble opinion is still to make the best use of it, as good each of us migth ever be able to.  😉.

As Fatis mentioned, humanization settings existed long before Dimension Strings.  They are very valuable for all the VI instruments.  

@William said:

As Fatis mentioned, humanization settings existed long before Dimension Strings.  They are very valuable for all the VI instruments.  

Sorry I fear William it was defenitly not that "long before":

VI Pro which as far as I know braught the humanisation feature for the first time was exactly launched in the same year (2011) with the first Dimension library ther (Dimension Brass 2011). To me that still seems to be a feature introduced for the Dimension series to wich it fits most.

That means the humanizuation feature was introduced litarally 'long time after' ( = up to 8 Years) the First Edition of Orchestral strings have been released in 2003, the Chamber Strings 2005

And as VSL often enough affirmed. Dimension Series and Synchron Series are two very different Product-lines based on two very different Concepts. Of course more able to complement each other than meant to replace another (which is of course another fact what should calm down any fears the VI would be abandoned that soon)

It is great if you like this feature as I do, but for me at least it still seems a bit strange to believe if a section (no matter wether of 6, 14 or 20 Strings) would have all absolutly simultaneously absolutly identic intonation aberations would make their sound more "realistic".

However that is just my humble opinion. I am sure if the VSL developpers would think like you and fatis, they would'nt hesitated a second to provide this function for the section-Libraries which are currently available. While to me it seems as if the current Releases of original Synchron-Format Libraries are more meant to replace the up to 15 years old First-Edition Orchestral-Cube libraries, which as you know are from 2003 + 2005 (and of course  not introduced with any humanization feature - which was introduced as far I can see not before 2011 with the first Dimension Library).

But perhaps Fatis must just "teach" them a bit more insistently and as soon they have learned Fatis lesson you will get your simultanous section intonation-aberations of which you believe it would contribute to the realism you are looking for and everybody is happy.😉

As I was thinking about this more this weekend, I think its fair to consider something else. Having dual engines with seperate libraries is somewhat disappointing. I think it might be interesting if the libraries were usable in either Synchron or VI, provided Synchron is at parody with VI feature wise. Then, this whole conversation becomes moot. Buy the library, use it with the UI you prefer.

Personally, I never understood why companies dont produce a UI designer for users to create a UI that works for them and make those UI's available pubclicly should they choose.

In all honesty, it has been shown time and time again that the community will produce a better product given the tools than a small team of engineers.

Id also like to point out something else, for the love of God, can we get UI scaling in VI? While I love VI, it is practically unusable on an 8k display. VI sits in a window that consumes 15% of the screen real estate, requiring a microscope / telescope to read the text, the remaining 85% of the screen is empty. I am running a dual monitor setup, and the windows scaling is wonky at best. I might have to purchase a program that simply doubles the size of a window (there are several out there that do this and more, making dual monitor setups much easier to manage). However, I wouldnt have to consider this if VI moved into the 21rst century and provided proper scaling.

@Another User said:

In all honesty, it has been shown time and time again that the community will produce a better product given the tools than a small team of engineers.

This is funny to read for me since this Player actually realises  in some fundamental aspects nearly exactly what Users have suggested befor in this forum some years ago. That is the reason why I think this discussion is still pretty important, because it might help the VSL-Developpers to reflect on the User-Feedback and thus wil help to make VSL-Products even more to what the Users want.