Sy Strings Ein Heldenleben and Enigma Variations

[stephen limbaugh]

Unlisted video for the VSL community:

In this video, you will hear 3 small excerpts from each piece. One fast/loud, the other soft and intimate.

My initial observations for users/developers:

• In Nimrod, I found myself engaged in an epic amount of tweaking legato transitions. Granted, I still call myself a novice user, I felt like it took quiet a bit more time to tame this library than my go-to library, Dimension Strings (I fully expect though, once I'm better at using the Synchron Player, I will get faster at rendering a desired result). The faster passages in Ein Heldenleben went faster than when I program Dimension Strings. I needed only a couple articulations per instrument, whereas in Nimrod I had to create new ones because the stock articulations weren't enough.

• The edit page is a savior. (Pro tip so you don't waste time, make sure if you edit one patch, you rename it so your changes don't effect the others in that patch "family.") What would be exceedingly useful would be for some sort of "Start" fader that could be automated, like in the VIPro2 player.

• For some reason, I found myself using articulations I didn't expect to use as a solution to certain problems. For example, using the soft legato articulation for two repeated notes is unnatural on SOME notes (on other notes it works fine). As a solution, I tried to cut into the sample with "start offset." When that failed, I tried crossfading between various vibratos... CC automation legato blur, velocity xfade, expression, etc. Nothing was satisfactory. What did work? Fast Marcato (on Nimrod... which is soft/slow) with a medium velocity and the Attack CC turned up a bit with legato blur at 127.

• You can totally get away with divisi parts with alternative mic mixes. If you have the full library, you can manipulate the panning/level/EQ on the close/mid/back mics, then turn down the room mics a little. Sounds nice.

• In creating a convincing string mockup, I've found a short-coming in the near perfection of the tuning. I have listened to every single Ein Heldenleben recording I could find, and the top orchestras in the world don't play those fast passages clean, nor are any of them in tune with themselves. If there were some sort of tuning parameter that would help, but I suppose the only current solution is to blend with another library (would LOVE to see Synchronized Dimension Strings!)

What does everyone else think?

(EDIT: One last thing, the 1st Violins I had the most trouble with. The rest of the string sections' legatos "behaved" much better... I wonder why that is?)

[William]

I thought those sounded great, very rich and full.  The general tonality is natural and believable, and your dynamics and phrasing really well done. 

I have often noticed what you were mentioning about how even great orchestras sound incredibly inaccurate compared to samples - something one has to keep in mind always, and obviously a great feature of Dimension with its individually controllable players.  

[stephen limbaugh]

Thanks William!

I bet we will get a really really great intonation options once we get more "Synchronized" libraries released.  And a few more weeks with the Synchron Player, I think I'll get much faster and know more tricks to get even better recordings.

[fatis12_24918]

 

Very nice experiment, very well commented.

I think the adagio is very nice and convincing (you did a great programming!), while the agitato sounds again weird... the "vintage-synth-keyboard" effect popping up when fast runs and cross fadings are building unnatural reverb and distortions.

I also didn't find yet a way to toally get rid of it, but I feel it reduced when I avoid as much as possible cross fading, legato blur and digital reverb. I also reduce a bit the release time for fast passages.

( What I miss most, in the attempt of avoiding cross fades to preserve realism, it's the cc11 of VI+MIR, because it was modulating the sound before the IR reverb acts. Now with SY player the cc11 is killing the reverb tail and creates strange ambience variations, then can't be used at the same extent. For that reason I find myself going back to MIR Pro: the best result I got with synchron strings were actually with Mid Mic (and/or Close), low release, center pan, and then using it as a MIR Pro istance with round 25% wet. That sounds a bit as a contradiction, but at least makes the lybrary still usable for my purpose).

[stephen limbaugh]

@fatis12_24918 said:

I also didn't find yet a way to toally get rid of it, but I feel it reduced when I avoid as much as possible cross fading, legato blur and digital reverb. I also reduce a bit the release time for fast passages.

Yes.  For the Strauss, I turned off Sy Player's onboard reverb and instead got more "tail" with MIRacle on the master bus.

I tried automation on legato blur and release all the way up and all the way down... sometimes I couldn't tell the difference, other times I could.  I'm wondering if there is a bug in the programming where the release/attack of SOME notes aren't behaving as intended.  Of course, because of the nature of string instruments, this could be a natural occurance (I'm not a string player).

On Nimrod, Legato blur and release on each instrument is at 127 nearly the whole time.

Question about the cross fading though:  Do you mean cross fading from no vib --> ly vib?  Or do you mean cross-fading between velocity layers?

[fahl5]

Hi Stephen,

Please dont get me wrong if I just frankly answer, my spontaneous reaction even if some aspects might sound critical, when I suggest things that might perhaps improve the result.

Nimrod:

- I do like the as warm as realisitic slowmovement strings in the Elgar excerpt. ( I am currently my self occupied with some Elgar compositions you might listen to in a few days). this is very well done good to have more members here who knows how to make stringsamples sound like that.

- If I ask me what I would suggest to work on further than for the Nimrod-Excerpt it would be the dynamic curve. For those 8 Bars it seem to be nearly the classical "bell curve" with its peak in the fifth bar. You might think "P" (piano) is nothing what might sound like a dynamic peak. For me the 'relative' dynamic is between ppp and p is still important escecially if it comes together with the highest note of the whole melody in Bar 5. It is a chance to give those few bars kind of a at least moderate dramatic development, which is perhaps worth to spend some work for.

- Another suggestion, of which I know that this is of course a matter of personal interpretation would be even in slow movements to understand "slurs" (I am talking here of the notation sign not the kind of Legato!) might indicate phrasing entities.Of course no one will play any little break between such phrases, in a sustained adagio like nimrod, one still might indicate such phrasings without any break but with correponding dynamic curves as it seems to me that Barenboim does it for instance does ith the last "phrases" in bar 7 + 8

Heldenleben:

I am glad you chose such an ambitious work like Strauss Heldenleben (here in Gernmany for copyright reasons I still have to wait two years befiore I can let you hear my Version). This is the right spirit to cultivate the serious and virtuose use of highend Samplelibraries like VSL.

Some other members spoke about the fast passages. In my eyes the Synchronstrings belong to the most agile stringsamplelibraries I ever had on the screen. Perhaps we should think about what "Legato" means from the view of the violinist. If it comes to such wild and strong passages as the beginning of Heldenleben, I would think that even if we see many slurs in Strass' score, the violinists presumably will play for the most possible precision even the fast notes as far as possible at least with bowchanges. Therefore I personally tend especially for precise fast passages, to go at least for marcato, fast marcato or even short note-patches. And believe me I dont think anyone will ask you for the notated "slur" (while of course at certain moments or characteristic jumps it would be nice to have "slur"-transitions - now I am not talking about 'slur' notationsign, but about the VSL Portamento legatotype. In so far Fatis point imho in the right direction, that the overlapping character of Legatotransitions is perhaps not the best patch for such fast passages even if they are notated legato. But that is imho not a problem of the library and I also understand your point if you first of all try to follow as close as possible the Score. But I believe even the best Stringsections would focus in such passages not that much on the notated slur, but on the precision of the single note.

Excuse my "instructive" kind of response but I grew up with the belive, that the most friendly you ever can do to others is to be honest and frankly. I hope you will not misunderstand it in any personal way since I honestly like what you do and the way you search your challenges and looking forward for more exciting experiments like this from your side.

[fatis12_24918]

@fahl5 said:

 Perhaps we should think about what "Legato" means from the view of the violinist. If it comes to such wild and strong passages as the beginning of Heldenleben, I would think that even if we see many slurs in Strass' score, the violinists presumably will play for the most possible precision even the fast notes as far as possible at least with bowchanges. Therefore I personally tend especially for precise fast passages, to go at least for marcato, fast marcato or even short note-patches. And believe me I dont think anyone will ask you for the notated "slur"  (while of course at certain moments or characteristic jumps it would be nice to have "slur"-transitions - ...But I believe even the best Stringsections would focus in such passages not that much on the notated slur, but on the precision of the single note.

This is not true. You may carefully watch videos in YouTube, and you will notice that the strings are following precisely the score, and play staccatos with bow changes and legatos in one bow. It's even more important and visible for the fast runs closing the segment: the very special sound of a string section playing a fast run in one bow, is what's impossible to get with the actual implementation (while it was very close to real with Dimension strings for instance, or other libraries). Of course you will feel the need of using short samples instead, and this is not only far from reality, but it's the reason for the synth-keyboard sound that will be the result.

[fahl5]

Hi Fatis,

It seems to me as if we talk about different aspects. There are Runs which are of course even in High tempi played in one bow. that is absolutly right. The Cube provided for that special recorded "Runs" (which wwere not that easy adjustable) and the Later VSL-Libraries Dimension as Synchron have "Fast-Legatos" for thatI havent tried it yet for Runs, but I expect, that those fast-Legatos does not differ that much. 

But my point means another musical aspect:

As soon fast notes become thematically important as it seem to me the case with most of the notes in the theme of Strauss Heldenleben I personally would suggest to emphazise the attack of the single note over the transition between a whole group. ( I thought that you already noticed that the overlapping of slower Legatotransitions can bring up some unrealistic effects, what I do consent) absolutly) 

My consequence was just to remind, that Legatotransitions are in fast tempi for the melodic continuity by far of not that importants as they are in lower tempi and a Melody with "Slur"-notation-signs does not sound as played without slur so soon  in a fast tempo as it does in slower tempi, while emphazising the Attack definitly raises "in my humble opinion"  the attention for the single note even and especially in fast tempi.

If you would decide different than this is of course your interpretation. at that point I thinkl the discussion would make musically more sense to be made with concrete examples. But this is for copyrighjt reasons not possible for me with Strauss so I am limited to give my general suggestions.

But however I did not at all intended in any way to offend you or someone else. And I hope that you didn't read anything like that in my reactions on Stephens experiments as Stephen has asked for with his thread.

So calm down think about what other say and decide what is good for you. thats all.

[stephen limbaugh]

I found this video, with the principle cellist of the Cleveland Orchestra very helpful.

https://musaic.nws.edu/videos/strauss-ein-heldenleben

Issue: in recreating these fast runs, while very clearly articulated with the left hand (or bow change), when duplicated by 9 other cello players and 8-10 more violas, in unison, sounds more like a slur than a crisp staccato 16th note as indicated in the score.  (Or think about 30 violins, including the old guys in the back of the section, all landing on those 16ths perfectly... lol.)

In making an articulation choice, do you copy the written score exactly, or do you copy the real sonic output?

And if I may make an editorial comment: There is no competing string library that could even come close to recreating the Ein Heldenleben excerpt... VSL is the only one.

[William]

And if I may make an editorial comment: There is no competing string library that could even come close to recreating the Ein Heldenleben excerpt... VSL is the only one. - Steven Limbaugh

I really agree with that, and it is often not noticed.  Often it is assumed all sample libraries are about the same  but VSL is totally different because of its closeness to the purely musical aspects of actual orchestral performance.  It is the library that is actually based on what conductors and players of symphony orchestras know - because many of the people there are actually orchestral musicians  starting from Herb who is a professional symphonic cellist in the center of the musical universe - Vienna.  Though I've used all the libraries what keeps me using VSL as the main one is its authenticity and total dedication to actual musical performance of the symphony orchestra.  

[fatis12_24918]

@stephen limbaugh said:

I found this video, with the principle cellist of the Cleveland Orchestra very helpful.

https://musaic.nws.edu/videos/strauss-ein-heldenleben

Issue: in recreating these fast runs, while very clearly articulated with the left hand (or bow change), when duplicated by 9 other cello players and 8-10 more violas, in unison, sounds more like a slur than a crisp staccato 16th note as indicated in the score.  (Or think about 30 violins, including the old guys in the back of the section, all landing on those 16ths perfectly... lol.)

In making an articulation choice, do you copy the written score exactly, or do you copy the real sonic output?

And if I may make an editorial comment: There is no competing string library that could even come close to recreating the Ein Heldenleben excerpt... VSL is the only one.

Well, yes you are right (bow changes are for the staccato notes only, also in your video it's perfectly visible that all legatos are made in one bow, and the excellent technic of left hand is defining the melodic line): in the orchestral execution, even if each player is actually playing the perfect bow legato/staccato changes, the "ensamble" effect and concert hall ambience is creating a bit of blur (but it also depends on orchestras, the 2 videos are slightly different on this aspect):

orchestra video 1

orchestra video 2

My personal attempt when I make my renditions, is to get the sonic output of course, but starting from the real articulation the players are supposed to use for getting the result. That's why I disagree about considering normal practice using shorts instead of legato patches: it's getting a perfect definition, but missing the connection between notes, (that is typical of synth-keyboard player vs. orchestral performance). Often it's enough to play with accents using velocity (another good reason to avoid velocity-cross fade, and keep velocity for the accent and melodic definition).

I didn't create any criticism about VSL at all. To be honest I don't know if VSL is "the only one... etc. etc." but I don't care: I'm here becase we talk about VSL. Actually my comment was about Synchron vs. Dimension or Chamber. In Dimension and Chamber strings you have a better set of tools to create convincing runs and fast legatos, and mostly it's due to the samples being dry and the overlapping of samples less invasive. The more I practice with Synchron, and the more I think crossfading and modulating wet samples is very tricky, and I'm getting convinced it's about 80% of the whole problem. The rest being programming and different sample processing.

[fahl5]

Hi Fatis, Finally, it seems to me as if you describe besically nearly the same reasonable attitude as I do:

- Legato as far the impression of the "run" is what is aimed to achiev,

- The more the each single note of a melodic line becomes important the more you like me would emphazise it with an Accent.

- No one demands to ignore the notation of the score from the start, we all consent that one should start (!) with considering what a score originally asks for as playing technic.

The in my eyes slightly different opinions occur only at those details:

- I do not see that problem with X-Fade when it comes to ensemble patches since their possible Phaseshiftingeffects are quite natural and characteristic for an ensemblesound. But that is obviously a matter of taste for which aspect you do spend the greatest sensibility.

- As far as I could test it now there is absolutly no problem to du runs with the Synchron-Strings fast legato as it was before with Dimension strings to do it  with the performance-trill-patch which was basically kind of a fast legato.

- I fear it could be a bit misleading to think, what a score calls staccato, is "always" excatly the same what the Tone-Engineers who produced a sample-library call a Staccato-patch. - No, of course it is not, in my humble opinion each articulation hint of any score is always related to the musical context in which it occurs. No one would stricly stop in an adagio at each ending slur the melodic continuity, since the phrasing which is indicated here demands a completly different dynamic and agogical realisation as it would be in a faster more dancing tempo. Just consider some staccati in slow movements, if you realy would use a staccato patch for that and not at least a detache or even a dynamic swell on one note you will end up often enough with completly musical nonsens. Thats why I just remind, to consider the musical context. Using short patches in a fast melody does not necessarily mean that you realy achieve always a "crisp" seperated sequence of single notes, but often enough the higher the tempo is and depenmdent to what kind of short-patch you use something, what might be in respect of the clearness of each single tone more appropriate to what you are looking for when realising the score in its own musical reasonable context.

To automatically associate the patch, which is called identically with how the notation sign is called a composer use is what the playback-automatism of notationsoftware do. If this would not "automatically" be in danger to sound "synthy"but really lead always to the one and only most convincing musical realisation, things would be much simpler: Than Hurray, lets automate music!. But I fear in real music things are not that simple but as individual as dependent from each single musical context. No composer in historty ever composed for the "patches" we now use, but more or less "indicated" with the help of the notation signs just what their musical Idea was about. The inflexible association one playingtechnic to one patch does already ignores the always large possible variety how different playing terchnics could be executed. In so far there is no other way than trying to understand the music first before chosing which patch would be the most convenient for a certain passage.

[fatis12_24918]

@fahl5 said:

- I fear it could be a bit misleading to think...

Why do you fear? I don't think there is a need of so long debate on so obvious topic. It's crystal clear to anybody even with a basic musical education and poor understanding of sample sequencing.

Actually most of us here are graduated composers, experienced performers, and experienced producers.

Anyway about cross fading: as objective fact what you listen to is 14 violins then 28 violins then 14 violins again, and it's sometime pretty evident in the timbrical fluctuations, but even worse, you get the reverb tails mixing and building up, or being subtracted due to wet samples. That finally makes the sound very digital. But yes,  you are right, to like it or dislike it, it's a pretty personal matter of taste and sensibility.

[fahl5]

@fatis12_24918 said:

Why do you fear?

Members who start stating something others said a<s "not true" before even tried to understand what exactly was meant, and later state just the same as their own insight. Not that impressive for someone "well educated" since education starts with being ready, willing and able to understand first. ...just my answer on your question.

[fatis12_24918]

@fahl5 said:

Members who start stating something others said a<s "not true" before even tried to understand what exactly was meant, and later state just the same as their own insight. Not that impressive for someone "well educated" since education starts with being ready, willing and able to understand first. ...just my answer on your question.

LOL 😂 clear from the first moment we have pretty different understanding of everything. Still I can’t resist to find hilarious you starting teaching things you don’t know, to people you don’t know.... so you’re start teaching composition to composers, conducting to conductors and production to producers. Why you don’t open a school for beginners? So finally you may feel good... just a little suggestion for free 😉

[stephen limbaugh]

Lots and lots to think about here.  This has all been very insightful and productive.  Thanks guys.

I hadn't thought long and hard enough about reverb tails and how those behave (i.e., my primary focus was on the beginnings of notes, not the ends of notes). 

[William]

“... starting from the real articulation the players are supposed to use for getting the result. That's why I disagree about considering normal practice using shorts instead of legato patches: it's getting a perfect definition, but missing the connection between notes, (that is typical of synth-keyboard player vs. orchestral performance). Often it's enough to play with accents using velocity (another good reason to avoid velocity-cross fade, and keep velocity for the accent and melodic definition). I didn't create any criticism about VSL at all. To be honest I don't know if VSL is "the only one... etc. etc." but I don't care: I'm here becase we talk about VSL. Actually my comment was about Synchron vs. Dimension or Chamber. In Dimension and Chamber strings you have a better set of tools to create convincing runs and fast legatos,..” fatis Really agree with that. That’s why the fast legato articulations are so good in that case. Sometimes when unable to get a good rendition withthe assumed “proper” articulation I have thought to myself “what might a conductor do when this is happening with his players?” In certain cases a section might actually substitute detache for a legato to clarify the line. So that sort of “faking” it can have a justification but the great thing about VSL of course is not having to fake things (usually). On the whole subject of legato the most realistic of all sample libraries is Dimension Strings. When you play single line and have 8 violins performing it with all different humanize settings it is so much like a live section it is uncanny, and why? Because the individual are ACTUALLY playing different timings on the transitions - no faking it.