Firstly I'd like to say that while my first post was certainly critical of this product I have greatest respect for what VSL are trying to do and am extremely grateful for their innovations and sheer grinding work necessary to produce their libraries. The fact that herb, dietz, paul and others participate on this forum is a tremendous bonus and says a lot about the company.

Secondly, partly to demonstrate that I'm not mad and partly because I hope somebody can tell me I'm doing something wrong, I've recorded a short mp3 which shows what I mean about the difference in the quality of the legato instruments between solo strings and chamber strings. It contains two short sequences, the first a short scale and the second a well known legato/portamento phrase - the first instance in each case is the perf legato f porta mod from solo strings, and the second the same instrument from chamber strings (legato slow in this case). The midi input is identical to both instruments.

You can clearly hear that in the ensemble versions there is a gap and a blip between some of the note transitions, whereas the solo violin sounds near perfect. Now I am no expert on midi editing and will be delighted if it turns out I'm doing something wrong.

You can hear the mp3 here:

http://www.yoyo.org/~steve/cs_vs_ss_demo.mp3">http://www.yoyo.org/~steve/cs_vs_ss_demo.mp3

Trip
[/url]

I think that what you need to do is increase the release time where you hear a blip when you don't want one. In the GS 2.5 days Herb posted a way of doing this using the Mod wheel; I guess that one has to find another controller now.

FWIW the solo sounds worse to my ears because it sounds as if all the notes are in the same bow, whereas this is not likely to happen in the real world.

DG

The gigaversion of the chamber strings does already have the Release-Control mappings (+RC). I don't know at the moment how this feature is managed in the Kontakt version.

Personally I would not programm a phrase exclusively using portamento articulations. Switching between normal legato and portamento should give authentic sounding results, because that's the way real players would perform it.
Another realistic solution could be to stack solo violin and chambers, some portamentos performed by solo and chambers together, and some portamenti only by the soloviolin (chambers normal legato), and maybe vice versa,
This offers a higher level of randomness and I'm sure it would sound pretty realistic. But Again, I wouldn't add portamenti to all notes.

best
Herb

@herb said:

The gigaversion of the chamber strings does already have the Release-Control mappings (+RS). I don't know at the moment how this feature is managed in the Kontakt version.

best
Herb

How is the release time controlled? As I mentioned, the mod wheel controlled version works very well for me so I'm interested to know how it is done in GS3.

DG

With modwheel.
All intruments which have been labeled "+RC" at the end of the instrument name do have this feature.
(Sorry I made a typo and wrote "+RS" instead "+RC" in my previous posting)

best
Herb

@herb said:

With modwheel.
All intruments which have been labeled "+RC" at the end of the instrument name do have this feature.
(Sorry I made a typo and wrote "+RS" instead "+RC" in my previous posting)

best
Herb

Thanks.

DG

Herb,

There *isn't* any portamento except for a couple of notes in the second part; none at all in the scale, but I agree the artifact I'm illustrating does sound like a sort of portamento on notes that are close in pitch. Here is the scale played using the chamber strings legato f slow (no portamento).

http://www.yoyo.org/~steve/cs_legato.mp3">http://www.yoyo.org/~steve/cs_legato.mp3

The +RS instruments are available for kontakt and sound fine when the RS is triggered, but of course that's not legato [;)]

I do appreciate you have better things to do than respond to this sort of thing in the forum. Thankyou.

DG,

I tried increasing the release time but it has very odd effects. I notice that the default release time for vi-6 perf leg f slow is already 3k ms! (This is the kontakt .nki instrument downloaded from vsl.) It certainly doesnt actually take 3 seconds for the note to decay. I'm at a loss on this one.

I take your point about the unrealistic bowing, but the point was to illustrate the blips in the cs version.

I'm clearly in the minority in my opinion on this problem, maybe it's only the kontakt instruments that are funny, or maybe I'm just plain wrong. I'll bow out now, but would still appreciate advice on solving it, by PM if you prefer.

Trip

"RS" was a typo, sorry. I meant "RC".

best
Herb

[RS vs RC]

Aha! The RC makes a big difference, I hadn't tried these before. Many thanks both.

I've got some glitches in this too but I'm going to go away and fiddle before I flaunt my ignorance again.

Trip

ok - your second example sure does sound unlike any of the legato instruments in Pro Ed... is it supposed to make that little jump?

I would also recommend to compare between "fast" and "slow" versions.
Generally the slow version benefits from longer release times.
The editing of the fast version is more compareable to solostrings and Pro Edition stuff.

best
Herb

@Christian Marcussen said:

ok - your second example sure does sound unlike any of the legato instruments in Pro Ed... is it supposed to make that little jump?

I'm relieved somebody else can hear it! I'm also relieved to hear that the Pro Ed instruments dont suffer this problem because I am itching to buy the performance set.

Trip

Trip:my Chamber strings don't exhibit this problem (EXS version),though sometimes I need to tweak the Performance Tool settings .It's clear that something needs sorting,but once it is,you'll find the Chamber Strings will be equal to the Solo ones.I assume your Solo Strings library is for Kontakt also? Hold that syringe!

I've done my own test with Chamber Strings (Gigastudio version).

www.Members.aol.com/jbacal/Chamber_Strings_legato_test.mp3

The test has the following short scale examples:

1) VI-6 perf-leg slow (out of the box-dry)

2) VI-6 perf-leg fast (out of the box-dry)

3) VI-6 perf-leg fast + VI perf-leg f mixed at 70% (out of the box-dry)

4) VI-6 perf-leg fast _2Lay + VI perf-leg p+f_2Lay mixed at 70% (I ramped the modwheel control from 0 to 127 and then back to 0. I also ramped the expression control on the last note from 127 to 0)

5) same as #4 but with a touch of Pantheon medium hall reverb.

All these examples sound noticeably smoother than Trip's example. The only way I could replicate his sound was to use the VI-6 perf-leg slow+RC instrument with the Modwheel all the way at 0. This puts the release time at .1 seconds. A more normal release time is .3 seconds. I don't know how the Kontakt version handles release times but if you can set them to .3 seconds you'll be a lot happier.

Please note that one additional thing you can do to smooth things out even more is to lower the velocity of the notes that have a more pronounced "bump." I didn't do this on these examples here, but it can make a big difference.

Hope this sheds a little more light on things.

Best,
Jay

Don't the Chamber strings require exactly the right pal., files? If he's not using "Hor" pal., files that would be trouble correct?

Dave Connor

wow, those strings sound very alive and moving. Just hearing an ascending/descending scale has got me impressed! Hmmm, where's my wallet????

Seriously, I might be coming into some money in the near future and I'm very impressed with these strings. As a Kontakt 2 owner, I'm really enjoying the bundled VSL sounds but they leave me wanting more legato instruments (the French Horn legato is friggin' fabulous Herb!)

-Dave

Allowing discussion, even if not entirely positive, is very appreciated! We can be realistic -- hopefully -- when evaluating other users comments, and it's good to have dialog about the products. It doesn't dissuade from purchase, at all. Even the contrary.

Hi Trip - Just heard your scale demo - sounds like there is something wrong with the settings in legato tool - are you sure, your using the right
legato preset for chamber strings in the performance tool?

/Bjarne

I've spent a lot of time trying to get to the bottom of this problem. I'm pretty sure it is related to the release times.

Yes, I'm using the right .pal file in the tool. I can get the +RC instrument to sound pretty good by increasing the release time with the mod wheel.

Using vi 6 perf legato f slow as an example:

2. The release time set by default as indicated by the release time knob in Kontakt is 3 seconds which is obviously too long, but the actual release time in use (indicated by the little blue light round the edge of the dial) is more like 180ms.
3. I notice in the GS gig file for the same instrument that the release time is set to 300ms.
4. Turning the release time control has no effect. Adding a midi-cc control to the release time seems to work for most note transitions but not for a few - they jump back to the 200ms setting.

I'm going to post a message in the Kontakt forum to see if anyone else can replicate the problem.

Many thanks to everyone who has posted. JBacal, your recording was a great help. I agree yours sounds smoother than mine, although even on yours the transition to the fourth note doesnt sound quite right to me, especially in the second scale.

Trip

And is the tool set for Horleg and not Legato?