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  3. bit disappointed with chamber strings

  • bit disappointed with chamber strings

    T
    T
    My copy of chamber strings arrived yesterday. Having been using the superb solo strings for a while, chamber strings is a bit disappointing.

    The editing on the legato instrument samples is poor. The transition sound at the start on many of the samples is too loud and produces a sort of volume blip between each note, quite the opposite of the intended effect. Comparing the same midi input on (say) the solo violin legato p, and violin ensemble legato p, the former sounds beautiful and the latter awful. Legato viola p is even worse. This blip does not occur on every transition, but probably on about half. It's slighly less noticable on the cellos.

    There is no (or virtually no) vibrato on most of the legato instrument samples, (but the odd one does pop up with more vibrato on it which is a bit strange) which makes slow legato sections sound very dry. Maybe this is normal for chamber music.

    The vibrato applied to the sV-espr violin sounds terrible. If I didnt have a great deal of respect for VSL I might suggest they had applied the vibrato to non-vibrato samples by electronic means. Some of the notes actually begin slightly flat because the attack occurs during what sounds like bottom of the sine-wave (and I'm not talking about the O samples). I can't beleive that's what they actually did but to my ears at least these instruments sound very synthy.

    Some of the velocity-stacked instruments have samples with different stereo positioning at different layers of the same note. This is no big deal to fix but sounds odd.

    The factor that makes the VSL products so outstanding is the performance tool and related instruments. I was so stunned by the results using the solo strings collection that to find they are let down by poor editing in this collection is a bit of a blow.

    Trip
  • M
    M
    Be very careful criticising VSL on this forum - there is a long history of intolerance for this type of thing. I'm interested to see whether this thread ends up 'closed'; that always happens when VSL products are criticised in any way at all.
    -mvanbebber
  • H
    H
    Mvanbebber, I think of all forums around we have a minimum amount of closed topics, further we had only two temporary bannings of members in three years.
    You had the honor to be one of this two, if I remember right?

    So far in three years there is nobody permanently banned, and there are maybe around ten closed topics. Most of them were closed to avoid personal flames between forum members.

    I think this facts should be prove enough our ambition for freedom of opinion here?

    Regarding Trip's opinion:
    It hurts to read this, because my personal opinion is, that the Chamber Strings is one of the best products we have produced so far.

    best
    Herb
  • M
    M
    i think it is stupid to say the topic should be closed blablabla. this is the members critically evaluated discription of how he felt a product was, not him being a troll saying stupid childish things like vsl sucks, they're a garbage company and not backing anything up.

    personally i've never used the chamber strings, and i don't think his post would change my decision on looking into it, but would make me more assertive on what to expect from it. i think we're all probably getting to spoiled, the fact that you can convince anyone on the street that what you do on your computer is a real orchestra and they'd buy it without question.
  • JBacalJ
    JBacalJ
    Trip--

    If you're using the chamber strings with GS3 don't forget to download and update your files with the GS3 art files. They will give you the ability to use the modwheel to blend the p and f performance instruments together. The f performance legato instruments tend to have a nice medium vibrato. So blending even a little bit of the f layer on top of the p layer can add a lot of "emotion" to a phrase.

    I also frequently add the solo violin (solo viola and solo cello sometimes too) on top of the chamber strings. This really makes them sing. The solo instrument seems to contribute the expressivity of the sound and the chamber instruments define the size.

    Also be sure to check out the string patches that basically only appear in the chamber strings (with a few exceptions). These include the performance detache, performance spiccato, harmonics, and the short staccato. These patches can come in real handy even in non "chamber" compositions.

    Best,
    Jay
  • DietzD
    VSL Team
    DietzD
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    @mvanbebber said:

    Be very careful criticising VSL on this forum - there is a long history of intolerance for this type of thing. I'm interested to see whether this thread ends up 'closed'; that always happens when VSL products are criticised in any way at all.
    -mvanbebber


    Nothing to add to Herb's answer - we have criticism and even blatant advertising for other companies' products all around here. Hold your horses, mvanbebber.

    Apartfrom that: is it so hard to understand that _we_ like what we do? Wouldn't it be a sign of very poor ethics if we would sell our customers products we consider to be mediocre ourselves? I think _you_ would be amongst the first too rant ...

    /Dietz
    /Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
  • S
    S
    I have been using Chamber Strings,along with much of the rest of the VSL collection.I have have used it extensively on many TV programmes and production music projects, and I'm now about to use it as string accompaniments to what will probably be a highly successful commercial "pop" album. I have nothing but praise for this library's realism and unrivalled pallette of articulations. It is certainly in no way inferior to any other VSL product,in my opinion.To be fair,he has been generous to the Solo Strings,but maybe when appraising the Chamber Strings he had a bad ear day.Perhaps Mr.Trip needs them syringed.[[;)]]

    As for "mvanbebber": he offers nothing in the way of criticism (positive or otherwise) concerning the product.Instead,he makes some infantile and provocative remark,designed to elicit nothing other than bad feeling.Does he actually own any of the VSL library? My advice to him:don't give up the day job.And if music is the day job:give it up!
  • D
    D
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    @Trip said:


    Some of the notes actually begin slightly flat because the attack occurs during what sounds like bottom of the sine-wave (and I'm not talking about the O samples). I can't beleive that's what they actually did but to my ears at least these instruments sound very synthy.

    Trip


    I think that it would be helpful if you could point Herb and Dietz in the direction of which samples you think are out of tune. I don't have Chamber Strings but on other sections of the library there are a few notes which are not as "centred" as others. However, I'm trying to compile a list so that I can at least be specific about which samples.

    DG
  • T
    T
    Firstly I'd like to say that while my first post was certainly critical of this product I have greatest respect for what VSL are trying to do and am extremely grateful for their innovations and sheer grinding work necessary to produce their libraries. The fact that herb, dietz, paul and others participate on this forum is a tremendous bonus and says a lot about the company.

    Secondly, partly to demonstrate that I'm not mad and partly because I hope somebody can tell me I'm doing something wrong, I've recorded a short mp3 which shows what I mean about the difference in the quality of the legato instruments between solo strings and chamber strings. It contains two short sequences, the first a short scale and the second a well known legato/portamento phrase - the first instance in each case is the perf legato f porta mod from solo strings, and the second the same instrument from chamber strings (legato slow in this case). The midi input is identical to both instruments.

    You can clearly hear that in the ensemble versions there is a gap and a blip between some of the note transitions, whereas the solo violin sounds near perfect. Now I am no expert on midi editing and will be delighted if it turns out I'm doing something wrong.

    You can hear the mp3 here:

    http://www.yoyo.org/~steve/cs_vs_ss_demo.mp3">http://www.yoyo.org/~steve/cs_vs_ss_demo.mp3

    Trip
    [/url]
  • D
    D
    I think that what you need to do is increase the release time where you hear a blip when you don't want one. In the GS 2.5 days Herb posted a way of doing this using the Mod wheel; I guess that one has to find another controller now.

    FWIW the solo sounds worse to my ears because it sounds as if all the notes are in the same bow, whereas this is not likely to happen in the real world.

    DG
  • H
    H
    The gigaversion of the chamber strings does already have the Release-Control mappings (+RC). I don't know at the moment how this feature is managed in the Kontakt version.

    Personally I would not programm a phrase exclusively using portamento articulations. Switching between normal legato and portamento should give authentic sounding results, because that's the way real players would perform it.
    Another realistic solution could be to stack solo violin and chambers, some portamentos performed by solo and chambers together, and some portamenti only by the soloviolin (chambers normal legato), and maybe vice versa,
    This offers a higher level of randomness and I'm sure it would sound pretty realistic. But Again, I wouldn't add portamenti to all notes.

    best
    Herb
  • D
    D
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    @herb said:

    The gigaversion of the chamber strings does already have the Release-Control mappings (+RS). I don't know at the moment how this feature is managed in the Kontakt version.

    best
    Herb


    How is the release time controlled? As I mentioned, the mod wheel controlled version works very well for me so I'm interested to know how it is done in GS3.

    DG
  • H
    H
    With modwheel.
    All intruments which have been labeled "+RC" at the end of the instrument name do have this feature.
    (Sorry I made a typo and wrote "+RS" instead "+RC" in my previous posting)

    best
    Herb
  • D
    D
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    @herb said:

    With modwheel.
    All intruments which have been labeled "+RC" at the end of the instrument name do have this feature.
    (Sorry I made a typo and wrote "+RS" instead "+RC" in my previous posting)

    best
    Herb


    Thanks.

    DG
  • T
    T
    Herb,

    There *isn't* any portamento except for a couple of notes in the second part; none at all in the scale, but I agree the artifact I'm illustrating does sound like a sort of portamento on notes that are close in pitch. Here is the scale played using the chamber strings legato f slow (no portamento).

    http://www.yoyo.org/~steve/cs_legato.mp3">http://www.yoyo.org/~steve/cs_legato.mp3

    The +RS instruments are available for kontakt and sound fine when the RS is triggered, but of course that's not legato [;)]

    I do appreciate you have better things to do than respond to this sort of thing in the forum. Thankyou.

    DG,

    I tried increasing the release time but it has very odd effects. I notice that the default release time for vi-6 perf leg f slow is already 3k ms! (This is the kontakt .nki instrument downloaded from vsl.) It certainly doesnt actually take 3 seconds for the note to decay. I'm at a loss on this one.

    I take your point about the unrealistic bowing, but the point was to illustrate the blips in the cs version.

    I'm clearly in the minority in my opinion on this problem, maybe it's only the kontakt instruments that are funny, or maybe I'm just plain wrong. I'll bow out now, but would still appreciate advice on solving it, by PM if you prefer.

    Trip
  • H
    H
    "RS" was a typo, sorry. I meant "RC".

    best
    Herb
  • T
    T
    [RS vs RC]

    Aha! The RC makes a big difference, I hadn't tried these before. Many thanks both.

    I've got some glitches in this too but I'm going to go away and fiddle before I flaunt my ignorance again.

    Trip
  • C
    C
    ok - your second example sure does sound unlike any of the legato instruments in Pro Ed... is it supposed to make that little jump?
  • H
    H
    I would also recommend to compare between "fast" and "slow" versions.
    Generally the slow version benefits from longer release times.
    The editing of the fast version is more compareable to solostrings and Pro Edition stuff.

    best
    Herb
  • T
    T
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    @Christian Marcussen said:

    ok - your second example sure does sound unlike any of the legato instruments in Pro Ed... is it supposed to make that little jump?


    I'm relieved somebody else can hear it! I'm also relieved to hear that the Pro Ed instruments dont suffer this problem because I am itching to buy the performance set.

    Trip