With regard to music bringing a lot of opinions to the floor, with few people showcasing what they themselves can achieve, I don't find it unreasonable to suggest that backing up your thoughts and criticisms with evidence of your own facility with sample libraries is such a bad thing.

Would you hire a 400 pound couch potato to be a personal trainer?

Would you cross a bridge designed by someone whose engineer training was comprised of watching "the greatest bridges in the world" videos on youtube?

Would you trust a pharmacist who told you the "pink pills are for girls and the blue pills are for boys."

Basically, what I'm saying is that, if you scour interet forums on music, the sheer number of opinions by so many anonymous individuals does require a way to ascertain the value of said opinion.  In any other field, asking an individual for their credentials, experiences, and evidence of their accomplishments is perfectly normal.  Ask a musician to showcase their musical output, and they suddenly get offended, call others names, and/or suggest that they're a snob/snooty, etc.  At this point, I would vouch for the opinion on a library by one competent (as in their music illustrates their competence) individual over a hundred anonymous points of view from those who are too afraid to put their stuff out there for scrutiny.

Just my opinion, and no, I'm not exclusively suggesting that you can't have an opinion without doing something yourself, just that backing up your credentials with evidence of your own achievement will go further to reinforcing your point of view.

Really, just to drive the point home:  would you buy any library by any developer without demos of the sounds?  Why then is it so offensive to ask for evidence of your own musical output to determine the value of your opinion, even if the individual assessing that value is doing so purely in a subjective way?

@Acclarion said:

With regard to music bringing a lot of opinions to the floor, with few people showcasing what they themselves can achieve, I don't find it unreasonable to suggest that backing up your thoughts and criticisms with evidence of your own facility with sample libraries is such a bad thing.

...

Really, just to drive the point home:  would you buy any library by any developer without demos of the sounds?  Why then is it so offensive to ask for evidence of your own musical output to determine the value of your opinion, even if the individual assessing that value is doing so purely in a subjective way?

Dear member, you should be right in principle. I'm less positive than you, because we are in a very well known "grey area" between professionalism and social network. I've been accused by the same guy(s), and I answered posting several samples and precise argumentations, and... you guess what? surprise surprise... no comment... no more talk-show. Unfortunately here it's about trollish attitude and disturbed social behaviour, not about facts. So I simply ignore any useless discussion and provocation, and focus on constructive and technical topics.

@Dietz said:

Dear Forum-Members,

I think that everything that had to be said is said by now - can we please bring this thread back to more friendly and cooperative ground?

Thanks a lot. 

Words of wisdom, I quote.

If you're referring to me I never heard any samples from you.  I would be quite interested in hearing them.  Where are they? 

Also, I am not the one giving a "talk show" - nor am I a troll. By definition that includes anonymity and furtiveness. I am definitely not those as you can visit my demos here any time, or my website which I've posted. You can also read about me on Production Music Online, CD Baby, buy stuff on Amazon, SMP Press or buy the Bluray of my last film "Disembodied" here - all scored with VSL. Also you can pm me anytime no problem. Just don't call me "trollish." And please post the link for those samples.

WILLIAM KERSTEN

www.williamkersten.com

@Dietz said:

Dear Forum-Members,

I think that everything that had to be said is said by now - can we please bring this thread back to more friendly and cooperative ground?

Thanks a lot. 

Words of wisdom, I quote.

But if everytime VSL ignores important questions we asked (e.g. whether the new player would improve the legato), VSL basically just wants silence, not cooperation.

@Acclarion said:

Really, just to drive the point home:  would you buy any library by any developer without demos of the sounds?  Why then is it so offensive to ask for evidence of your own musical output to determine the value of your opinion, even if the individual assessing that value is doing so purely in a subjective way?

You're gonna have to scroll up a bit and have a read, it's perfectly laid out in my post.

Your comparisons miss a very important point: I'm not trying to sell anything to anyone. I don't have to "prove my credentials" to talk perspective on multi-mic recorded libraries and general tech. If we were arguing composition or whatever, that would be a different matter. But right here, right now: it's a disingenuous and anti-intellectual position and deserves to be shot down with every bit of sincerity and directness.

Go back to the post that provoked the contention in the first place. Go and read it. It was about amounts of reverb tail, timbre and available mic positions. That's a topic of tangible substance. You're telling me I first need to present my own symphony to be "allowed" to offer to you the notion that Synchron Strings actually has a balanced sound that isn't particulary colored at all? Seriously?

People have heard my work. Some of them have heard it in theatres. It just so happens that William hasn't. Is that important? I'm old enough to recognize when the principle debates come up and I know they always do when there's BS and ulterior motives involved.

Needless to say, I'd be way more happy to talk Synchron Strings instead.

@Acclarion said:

Really, just to drive the point home: would you buy any library by any developer without demos of the sounds? Why then is it so offensive to ask for evidence of your own musical output to determine the value of your opinion, even if the individual assessing that value is doing so purely in a subjective way?

@Another User said:

Finally, I'm not willing to die on the hill for this battle and don't want to pressure you to post music, as you're clearly not comfortable doing so.

Is that so? As I said - my work is not a particularly secret affair, so why would I wear that shoe? To be honest, I don't find it fitting to showcase my pieces here because apart from the Woodwinds, they didn't feature a lot of VSL lately (obviously I'd love to put SyS through their gears after having them lie around on my drive for 7 months, but like everyone else I'm waiting for that damn player). It doesn't mean that I don't know anything about multi-mic libraries.

I already said that I won't be dorked into this kind of "credentials" game here because I know who I'm dealing with and that it's a diversion tactic. From that standpoint, it's probably smarter not to die on this particular hill, as you put it, because so far you have been involuntarily playing my "antagonist's" game by making it about "me" and fully diverting the discussion from the original point it was about. Absolutely no offense to you, I get your perspective, but context matters.

I'm personally not offended that you choose not to share your work, and further, I agree that you shouldn't be subject to any form of abuse by offering opinions, but I really think you shouldn't keep suggesting that your work is not a particularly secret affair, when in fact, it actually is.  Your phone number is known to many people I'm sure, but if you haven't made anyone on this forum privy to it, then, your phone number is a secret affair here.  In essence, by saying your music has been heard in films, and is known to many people, but not revealing your actual identity, you're playing the game of building yourself up without the consequence of having others vet your statements.  It's a small point, but I think it goes to what a lot of people do on forums, in terms of hiding behind a pseudonym, and bragging about their accomplishments, without subjecting themselves to any scrutiny.  

That's the only thing I'm personally strongly against.  Have at it with a discussion of libraries and, in no way, do I discount your voice in sharing your thoughts.  Power to you for it!  Anyway, I do at least appreciate your explanation as to why you aren't sharing your pieces, although I can't speak for others.

I'm checking out, but do welcome a continued discussion about the Synchron strings, as I learn from all of your ideas and insights, and am eagerly waiting for the release of the player as well.

All the best,

Dave

@JimmyHellfire said:

I think it's odd what people are making out of this. Almost a quasi-religious discussion. Even more so considering the fact that the Synchron series so far has been still very much in line with VSLs "philosophy". Some people act as if the Synchron Strings were swimming in a sea of reverb and had this totally distinct, immutable sound, like it came straight out of a Hollywood movie.

Quite the opposite is true. SyS might be the driest "wet" library out there. It's not at all comparable to the Spitfire stuff or whatever. It has 100% VSL character - pristine, flexible, more "classical" - and has such a subtle reverb tail that would hardly get in the way of anything you might want to do. And the multi-mic setup is exactly what you need for the same flexibility you always had with VSL. If you need a closer, drier sound - what's the problem? Dial in the mics accordingly! It's easier and faster done than previously.

 The most notable change is that due to the realistic spatial depth, the samples simply sound more natural and "real" than the older libraries.

 It seems to me that some of the notions expressed here have more to do with tribal instincts and "choosing sides" than with using one's ears.

Jimmy,

I'm not sure if this was in response to my previous post or if you were just making a general statement about the direction the thread was heading but maybe the point I made became diluted from the irrelevant rambling that I started so I'll try to make it again.

For the record, I've heard the SyS demos and I've seen the videos.  I really like what I saw and heard👍  I'm especially attracted to the details in the samples😊

But I was trying to make the point that there is an artistic process in creating a sonic environment all your own whether you're using MIR, Vienna Suite, or some 3rd party plug ins.  This process can be just as involved and require just as much passion as stringing notes together to create a composition and that is why I don't want to see the Silent Stage retired.  Now if this is a "tribal" instinct then I guess I'm a proud card carrying member of the Silent Stage Tribe but that doesn't mean I'm taking sides against the SyS Tribe.

I think VSL has recognized a market trend here and SyS is their answer to it.  Working composers are under more pressure to create more product faster than before and SyS can be used to that end.  Everything sounds bueatiful right out of the box which saves time.

There's an old saying," I don't know what the secret to happiness is but the secret to failure is trying to make everybody happy" 

Well, I think maybe VSL has figured out a way to "make everybody happy" by creating the Synchron series.  If you want the spatial reverbed samples go with Synchron but if you like to create your own sonic environments stay with the Silent Stage samples.  But!!!  Give us the choice.  And I propose we call the Silent Stage samples just that "Silent Stage" not Classic, not Legacy not the old stuff, etc.

@jasensmith said:

Give us the choice.  And I propose we call the Silent Stage samples just that "Silent Stage" not Classic, not Legacy not the old stuff, etc.

I concur, but saying it more to VSL... if VSL does not put out new products (soon enough) for the Silent Stage soon enough, the series will get stale anyhow.

What was the last product for the Silent Stage? Wasn't it "Roompack. 6: Synchron Stage Vienna"?? And what was one before that???

I empathize decisions are often market-driven, but IMHO, if they rely too much on the market, there will be no vision, or the vision might not be that unique.

With the release of Synchron Piano and Synchron FX Strings, VSL has proven that they have maintained their standard of excellence. If they could be slightly more transparent with their roadmap, I think many of us will be a lot less anxious... and more than happy to embrace new products in either series.

Hopefully, VSL understands that we are investing in not just their libraries but also their vision. Edit: Probably VSL understands that aspect too well... 😄

...

@jasensmith said:

But I was trying to make the point that there is an artistic process in creating a sonic environment all your own whether you're using MIR, Vienna Suite, or some 3rd party plug ins.  This process can be just as involved and require just as much passion as stringing notes together to create a composition and that is why I don't want to see the Silent Stage retired.

That makes a lot of sense. I wasn't looking at it that way. You're right of course that conceiving and sculpting the sonics are a substantial aspect - especially if one uses things like MIR and has fully incorporated it into their process - and I can absolutely see that working on those aspects is enjoyable, important and part of the journey.

From that perspective, it's a legitimate concern that VSL is seemingly contradicting their whole ecosystem so far. On the other side, time is such a problematic factor - it most certainly is for me - and anything that does away with another step of this already often very tedious journey is welcome.

The thing I couldn't relate to as much  is the "slippery slope" kind of thinking that seems to imply that VSL is doing "out of the box", idiot composer libraries now because that's what sells today. But there's still a huge difference between a library that simply comes with some already baked-in ambience and offers several mic positions to help you shape the desired sound, and sonic "readymades" that make promises like "sound like XY in under 30 seconds!", box the user into one certain sonic environment, or emit complete phrases by holding down a key.

So far I found that SyS is still very much in line with what VSL was doing previously, in terms of sonics and character, and therefore thought that some of the fears or criticisms expressed in this thread were over the top and perhaps came with somewhat of an ideological background.

Dial in your mics  + some EQ if neccessary, and go - that's a new approach for VSL. One that I personally absolutely welcome, but whether it actually pans out is still to be seen (Have I already mentioned that this damn player really needs to be out now? 😊). The "older" approach on the other hand is already tried and tested and I of course understand that users are wondering if what they have become accomplished in using is considered "obsolete" now.

I was going to write more here but - I realized it is pointless.  And actually it is slightly repulsive to me to correspond this way.  It is an artificial and distorted way of conversing.  

Anyway I will sign off and let all the experts do what they do while I go and work on some music.

Funny, because I saw the post before you edited it out. Wise decision in any case.

Having read insightful posts here, like Bill's and Jasen's (I like the Adam Smith reference), and others', I am thankful I am not the only one having these thoughts about VSL's new direction. I have to admit that it is the last of the major 'Houses' that is moving to cater to the 'Inept' market, but I have to be thankful for all the wonderful products they have created thus far that literally changed our creative lives, and hope they don't stop!

But I can't help laughing silly at the ending of that Synchron FX video where the guy says "...so that you can create YOUR VERY OWN SIGNATURE sound..." 😃

@Errikos said:

...But I can't help laughing silly at the ending of that Synchron FX video where the guy says "...so that you can create YOUR VERY OWN SIGNATURE sound..." 😃

LOL 😃 this is a good one!

Well actually VSL published already the REAL tool for creating FX strings with YOUR VERY OWN SIGNATURE sound, and it was VI Pro 2 with Dimension strings: working with sequencing patterns, and individual player control, including detuning (e.g. "out of tune"  humanization envelopes) you had the fast way of creating building blocks for clusters and effects... YOUR OWN, not the pre-canned ones. 😛

But this new set of lybraries are for quick real-time manipulation on the keyboard, quick-arrangers on tight time schedule, more than accurate composers. What's wrong? ...the market demand... VSL offers... still we can make our choice.

Speaking of old/new Synchron, here is a piece mixed with MIR Synchron but using the Silent Stage Instruments. I recently tried out the MIR Synchron and it seems to fit this piece...

The Valiant