Yeah, this temp track problem is a haunting one in film soundtracks... However, as William says, the great composer does conform to the director's instructions but makes the temp music his own. Great examples include Jarre's Lawrence of Arabia (Born Free imposed temp track) and Goldsmith's Star Trek I (the whole of Star Wars as a temp track was "politely" imposed, as if anybody could imitate that...).

I must say, one of my very favourite soundtracks is The Secret of NIMH from Goldsmith. One would be illiterate not to see that Debussy was tempd all over that film, but somehow Goldsmith wove his language around it (more or less...), for a uniquely atmospheric soundtrack.

Incidentally -and that's funny- I consider Star Trek II and Aliens Horner's strongest soundtracks (from all Horner films I know), along with Cocoon and Brainstorm. I generally don't like the man's music, and no, I haven't seen Titanic (on principle).

"one of my very favourite soundtracks is The Secret of NIMH from Goldsmith. One would be illiterate not to see that Debussy was tempd all over that film, but somehow Goldsmith wove his language around it " - Errikos

That is the real question - how a composer creates his own music to score the scene.  Horner uses someone else's music and then calls it his own by sticking in some layered fanfares or altered orchestration. 

I was thinking about what Bernard Herrmann would say to a producer who gave him a temp track.  It would not be repeatable here without an instant thread shutdown. 

I would add to this - Herrmanns' music WAS the temp track as well as the final score.  There was no temp track with Herrmann.    There was no music or his music.   That is the polite way of putting it.  

I am going farther to say that all film composers now use Herrmann as their temp track even though they won't admit it.  How can you do something beyond "Psycho" for mental disease?  it can't be done.  How can you create something more Romantic than Vertigo "Theme d'amour" ?   How can you create more fantastical music than the skeleton fight from "Seventh Voyage of Sinbad' with its cacophony of xylophones and percussion?  Or the absolutely insane music he wrote for dePalma's "Sisters" using analog synths with orchestra?  Or the delirious excess of "Obsession" with choir, pipe organ, orchestra accompanying a very mediocre film and dwarfing it artistically.  And the list from Herrmann goes on - just find one of his scores and you will discover incredible experimentation with orchestration, development and musical form  - he is one of the greatest composers of modern times, not just film,  and people are only right now realizing it. 

@Errikos said:

Yeah, this temp track problem is a haunting one in film soundtracks... However, as William says, the great composer does conform to the director's instructions but makes the temp music his own. Great examples include Jarre's Lawrence of Arabia (Born Free imposed temp track) and Goldsmith's Star Trek I (the whole of Star Wars as a temp track was "politely" imposed, as if anybody could imitate that...).

Wow I didnt know that Goldsmith was given Star Wars as a temp track and then later created music like Star Trek. Now that is something incredible and inspiring. How do you make a 'come back' after given the colossal filmscore like Star wars, and that too create another amazing peice of sci-fi score that sounds good and different!

comparing with tennis. Its like being down 2 sets playing against Federer and later coming back to equalize (I wouldnt say win becaiuse I respect both Goldsmith and JW equally although I consider JW is the greater of the two).

very very inspiring to know that composers like these existed. And Hermann too of course. This thread has reignited my interest in Hermann and hope to listen to more of his scores.

If this were a serious Thread about the Topic of "Plagiatism" then you should be sure, that you checked all of the informations on the Topic available.

Interesting Markus, but I my opinion, Williams does just about enough to take the music away from the proposed original inspirations, but It does seem clear that in some cases though he might have had existing music in mind prior to composition, be that through a temp or from his knowledge of the repertoire. I have always noticed a similarity in places between his last cue in ET and Hansons' Romantic Symphony too, but I find the Jaws/Dvorak comparison a little too tenuous in the link above.

I take Williams (Bills') point about plagiarism, but am not prepared to outright imply that Horner did it purposely or as a matter of course. In my pro work, I have often lost work because of a refusal to get close to a temp and do understand the pressure involved, especially when it is your living. Having said that, sometimes I did get the job and often that was because I incorporated the spirit and emotion of the temp in a different and yet similar guise. At Horners' level, I can certainly appreciate the pressure he must have been under to deliver with tight deadlines and coersive pressure from the powers in control. He was in trouble from the Britten estate I believe for his shameful rip of the Sanctus in Brittens' War Requiem' in 'Troy', which dropped my jaw to the floor upon first hearing, but then again (although this is no excuse really for such blatancy is it?) he only had a few weeks (2 I think) to do the whole score as the original commissioned (and recorded) score was dropped.

I still do not think Horner is the villian here, although admittedly Bills' examples are compelling - I prefer to share the crime out amongst media ethics (or rather lack thereof) and practice as well as the participants willing to partake in such.

reminds me on alot of Williams Scores. Superman and Star Wars included. And If I listen not only to the melodic similarities but also view the structure of this Piece. i would named this John Williams, but its a Korngold Piece.

Well, you can find examples of passages from every composer that resembles another. I know exact phrases of Mozart that are from Vivaldi, and Beethoven from Haydn, Dvorak from Mendelssohn....and so on... But we know that these composers are greater than this small snippets that they may have take or were inspired by.... So with John Williams ... We cant equate him to Horner just because they both lifted from other pieces...JW is a far greater composer and craftsman with prodigous output of film and concert music. There is simply no comparison. I can't recall one melody or concert work of Horner.

Anand

@mw design said:

reminds me on alot of Williams Scores. Superman and Star Wars included. And If I listen not only to the melodic similarities but also view the structure of this Piece. i would named this John Williams, but its a Korngold Piece.

It is very interesting how much this sounds like John Williams. Three quarters of the main Star Wars theme is in the first couple of minutes, but what are Williams' themes other than arpeggios and some passing notes... That is not where his strengths lie. There are differences, Williams has more energy, more polyphony, more brass, more bravura, different generation altogether, but it is rather close!

E.T. sounds a lot like Prokofiev-lite to me (except for the theme - Prokofiev could write tunes), but the point is Williams has been the best symphonic writer in Hollywood for decades, he doesn't have Goldsmith's range in that J.G. composed magnificent soundtracks in most genres, whereas Williams -although way above average at worst- is slightly more limited (or picks his films less avariciously), but unsurpassed in his areas of strength.

You know who in my mind is most original and his symphonic writing doesn't sound like anybody before him? No, not Herrmann. 

Hans!

So, what does this mean?

mw design -

John Williams' scores are not carbon copies like Horner's, with whole sections simply lifted out like a print from a press - they are influenced by other composers.    If you don't see the difference, then forget it. I can't help you.  You must be a Horner fan and don't mind total thievery and outright plagiarism to create the main themes of his scores.   But the fact is Williams has a style of his own that is cohesive and original even though it is very tonal and therefore has to be similar to previous composers.    Also as agitato stated - if you want to you can find pieces by any composer - INCLUDING BEETHOVEN, MOZART AND HAYDN  - that sound the same as someone else when taken out of context.  There is a total profound difference between these two and if you don't see it - we have nothing in common and nothing to discuss.   

William

You want to find Excuses now that because of a different Name its ok to use Sounds from other Composers, this reveals a different Story your telling here ! 

Another Thing is a Composer want to leave their own Footprints, Have You ever heard a Composer saying I want to be rememberd because I put my Footprints into other Footprints ?

Think about that Idea !

Im now out of this discussion, cheers

Don't go Markus. 

Bill and Anand do have a point though, Williams is such a strong creative force and such a superb craftsman that he will inevitably take ownership of any influence - a little like Stravinsky and Pergolesi or Picasso and Velasquez.

Errikos, well, well, well.......💡......😊........😈.

@William said:

I have heard people say that John Williams stole this or that, but there is a HUGE difference - his main themes were completely original and totally identifiable as his own music.  There is no classical composer who created Star Wars or Indiana Jones or Schindler's List or Superman melodies  and then John Williams just disgusied them - those are pure John Williams and his own very original style. 

@FabioA said:

Not to mention the well-known similarity with "The Planets", but also a couple of musical ideas stolen from Stravinsky. And I'm talking just about Star Wars..

I perfectly agree that composers for movies have to start from something that is already in the mind of the audience, because as a composer you have to speak with a language the listener can understand and relate to. But sometimes as Williams says, it almost becomes a carbon copy.  Personally, I would be just fine if they would avoid to award those composers with an oscar, if the soundtrack is clearly "inspired" from the classic repertoire..

No offense Fabio but that video is pretty silly. Let alone that the snippets from Star Wars and Kings row sound very different, but by this argument no one should write any new brass fanfares because they all sound similar to what was already written! I can show you 'identical' sounding brass fanfares from Mahler Bruckner and Strauss.

The first commenter of the video echoes my thoughts:

Jon Adamich3 years ago "It's interesting how people with no classical understanding will put these two together. It's the same as metallica and U2. In context of the genre they steal from each other.  Since classical is to taboo and no one listens to it, people will say Williams stole from this score. It's such bullshit. Listen to ever fanfare written. Believe me, in no more was this stolen or even at least, inspiration. "

I really don't want the be the one that accuses John Williams. I would love to see more composers like him in the new generation..
And I agree with the comment you quoted. I know what he meant. But still, I never listened to a fanfare so similar to Star Wars; there are so elements in common. And I wouldnt consider myself a person with no classical understanding, but that's just my word :)

Again, I don't want to wag against John Williams, but at the same time it was hard to read that James Horner was a plagiarist and John Williams is not. If James Horner is a plagiarist, John Williams is a plagiarist as much (or more), not to mention many other composers. I could tell you so many examples of soundtracks that share with a classical piece of music not only the melody and the harmony, but the orchestration and even the key.

What about "The Dune Sea of Tatooine" and "The Sacrifice, Introduction" of "The Rite of Spring"? If you ask me, it's pretty brilliant the idea  to use such sonority on those scenes; and I also think template musics was already more common than our thoughts. But if you ask me "did he took the idea from Stravinsky?", my answer is Yes, consciously. 

The point some of us are making here is that JW is far more than these melodies, if you sum up all the work he has done over the last 50 years. Just because he took themes and Horner also took themes from others that doesnt mean they are comparable. We shouldnt even mention them in the same sentence.

By the same logic one could argue that Horner  = Mozart as Mozart copied others and himself numerous number of times. 

You have to see the sum total of a composer's output and not single instances or melodies.

Cheers

Anand

"Williams is such a strong creative force and such a superb craftsman that he will inevitably take ownership of any influence" - mh7635

That just nails it and says what I couldn't put into words.  it is the reason for the futility of finding a section of any artist's work that is like another even though overall it is totally owned by the artist because it his style.  Star Wars, E.T., Jaws, The Fury, etc. etc. etc.  - they are not any other composer, they are John Williams. 

What is James Horner?  What is his style? There is no discernible style, just a mix of other composers' work and cliches of film music arranged skillfully.  But anyway I  am not interested in spending time trashing that music, it was just an observation after being forced to hear it watching Star Trek II - a great film afflicted by mediocre music  - exactly the reverse of the first Star Trek - a mediocre film benefitted by one of the greatest film scores ever written.

@William said:

I have heard people say that John Williams stole this or that, but there is a HUGE difference - his main themes were completely original and totally identifiable as his own music.  There is no classical composer who created Star Wars or Indiana Jones or Schindler's List or Superman melodies  and then John Williams just disgusied them - those are pure John Williams and his own very original style. 

To the person who wrote this post - I have a large collection of Erich Wolfgang Korngold including rare LP records as well as CDs.  He is my favorite film composer along with Bernard Herrmann.  I have heard and studied all of his music and love it.  His Die Tote Stadt is one of the greatest operas of the 20th century. His Sinfonietta, the scores for Robin Hood,  Elizabeth and Essex,  many others are masterpieces.  But NEVER ONCE did I think John Williams simply ripped off King's Row - which I have several recordings of - to compose Star Wars.  That is absurd.  There is a huge difference between mere tonal and motific similarities in a composer who is DELIBERATELY trying give a feel like Korngold - which Williams was doing on Star Wars in order to create that Romantic quality - and someone who really did rip off every classical composer he could get his grubby mitts on.   John Williams did not do that - he created original themes and style of his own.  

This is a very interesting thread.  I don't have too much to add except to say that when I was in college it was poplular to accuse JW of plagarism and point out all the various themes and such that he "stole".  So for a long time that shaped my opinion of him.  However some years later when I decided to think for myself I came across his concert music and realized immediately that his music is his music.  

@William I also love Korngold and Hermann.  I appreciate other movie composers of that era like Waxman and Rozsa too.