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  4. An appreciation of VSL

  • An appreciation of VSL

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    Working on various projects, both as "classical" compostions and as film/TV scoring jobs, I have used different sample libraries, but none of them seem as good as VSL because of two things:  1) the fundamental focus of VSL in recording actual musical values, and 2) the interface developed for that.   

    So many other libraries have great sounds but are not useable as soon as your music drifts away from whatever they sound good at, out of the box.  But with the focus on basic musical values - what exactly the instrument does to play various styles - no matter how "good" it sounds according to a current style or not - i.e. its particular basic legato, staccato, sustain, dynamics, etc. - it is instantly obviously how to use the sounds.  And the Vi/VE interface makes it easy by simply switching between them.  Choose your manner of switching and go.  

    I have never used the provided presets and matrices, even though they are expertly programmed, because my approach has been to start with ONE articulation: legato or sustain.  Then when working on the piece, realizing another is needed, say, a detache or staccato, or maybe a dynamic, then it is added.  But it is a cumulative, simple approach based on one's own music that can be used. 

    VSL is the only library that organizes sounds in this way - all the others I have used have special organization based on what they figured out as a way of marketing their sounds, but not based on musical values.  The people at VSL thought long and hard - how does one represent everything this instrument does with digital samples?  They then proceeded to do that.  Nobody else has done that.    

    I find it funny and yet very appropriate how the center of the musical universe - Vienna - is where this technology was innovated and developed.   If Mozart, Beethoven or Bruckner were alive - they would be VSL users. 
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    +1 !

    Trully, those observations are actually making VSL what it is !

    Excelent points!
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    @William said:

    I have never used the provided presets and matrices, even though they are expertly programmed, because my approach has been to start with ONE articulation: legato or sustain.  Then when working on the piece, realizing another is needed, say, a detache or staccato, or maybe a dynamic, then it is added.  But it is a cumulative, simple approach based on one's own music that can be used. 

    This is very interesting. Since I do work as it seems quite the opposite way with very, very large presets programmed by myself providing nearly all the Superpackage has for a certain instrument. Which allows me to keep articulationswitching for all my projects the same way while I still am free to chose for every single note exactly the patch that fits best for a certain musical situation.

    Isn't it very timeconsuming if you (instead of organizing once a general system, which let you find all you might need in all presets for all instrumeents in the same way) always start with just "one" single patch and than always create your VI-Matrix for each instrument for each recording completly new while programing the music? Isn't it more and more confusing, if you assign for each new patch you decide to make use of,  a new Keyswitch or Midi-CC-Value . I fear at least for me that would be the case.

    It is still great that VSLhitherto -allows to establish very different approaches to work with the vast ampount of available patches. Nevertheless I am very curious for the Synchronplayer which seem to streamline the organisation of available articulation and seem to reduces "articlationswitching" what will bring for both of us presumably another new way to work with VSL-Samples.

    How ever from what ever differetn point of view there is always enough to consent your appreciation for the great Work VSL has already done.
  • W
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    You do some very good work Steffen and I understand what you are saying.  I have tried to use a minimalist approach and don't like to have articulations that I am not using.  Oddly enough it helps me to think about exactly how the musical line is going to be performed in the most basic way.  Sometimes I find that a single articulation can play an entire line.   It is time consuming but I have developed empty presets that I place articulations in which makes it easier.  Also I have been using a specific order of keyswitches which is somewhat arbitrary, but I have gotten used to it so it makes the recording/performance process easier.   

    Also, and this is tied in with a basic way the VSL library is constructed, one can "build" the musical performance using this approach.  For example, a single line is played and sounds fairly good, but is lacking in "punch."  So one can then add in a single articulation like sforzando or even a light dynamic accent, and it adds just enough for the line to be played better.   This kind of thing is very natural  with VSL because of the way it bases everything on actual musical expressions/articulations, i.e. sostenuto, legato, fortepiano, etc.
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    @William said:

     

    Also, and this is tied in with a basic way the VSL library is constructed, one can "build" the musical performance using this approach.  For example, a single line is played and sounds fairly good, but is lacking in "punch."  So one can then add in a single articulation like sforzando or even a light dynamic accent, and it adds just enough for the line to be played better.   This kind of thing is very natural  with VSL because of the way it bases everything on actual musical expressions/articulations, i.e. sostenuto, legato, fortepiano, etc.

    I use VSL exactly the same way William.
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    That's interesting to hear Wayne.  I'm not saying you have to do it like that, it is just an aspect of VSL that I like.  I think it comes from the fact that I first started using VSL with the First Edition for Gigastudio, when it didn't even have any Vienna Instruments/Ensemble.  At that time I was doing a separate track for each articulation, which was an insanely complicated nightmare especially with Gigastudio crashing about every ten minutes. With the development of the VSL-dedicated software interface VI/VE all those could be placed on one track exactly like a single musician or group, which was a huge improvement and much more musical, with the software emulating what the composer and conductor do. 

    That is what VSL has focused on especially with MIR which creates the virtual stages and instruments as multiple sound sources and only one or two microphone positions.  That is the REVERSE of what ALtiverb did - which was multiple mic positions and only one sound source!  Exactly the opposite of what is needed for an orchestral performance. I remember at the time thinking vaguely (not being an engineer) "this is wrong - you need multiple sources and only one mic, not the other way around - hmm...."   And then MIR did exactly that!  And VSL has continued with the thoughtful and amazingly innovative approach of figuring out what is actually needed musically.  
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    I never thought of MIR vs Altiverb like that William, but it makes perfect sense. 

    I use Cubase and prefer one track per each instrument or string section. So I use the Cubase expression maps feature to switch articulations. I gradually developed my own expression maps, then standardized them among all of the instruments and string sections. I did have to make some compromises here and there, but it makes working with VSL instruments make more sense for the way my brain works.

    Like yourself I have tried other libraries and keep coming back to VSL for the same reasons that you mentioned. I have high hopes for the new Synchron Strings I, but I sure hope we do not loose the consistency and the flexibility we now have with the existing libraries.
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    Both methods are good, I guess it depends on what works best for you, and if you are composing or doing mockups, 2 different worlds, but I think what's most important here is knowing your library, it's worth the extra effort I think. Composers cannot write 100% of what they would like using virtual tools despite the amazing progress we are seeing, they must adapt to the tools, so the better you are familiar with your tools the more enjoyable the process will be. I like to work like William, I'll quickly scan the articulations but having a good idea already what's there. I also don't want to be cluttered with tons of patches I won't be using in the piece, especially when you have a large number of tracks. I'm still learning from all the libraries. I've improved over the years mainly because I use the libraies more efficiently. If ever I were to make a tutorial video, I would force students to create melodies with a minimum number of patches, it's more effort and time, but the result is worth it.
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    "If ever I were to make a tutorial video"...

    Please DO 😉 , and more than one !!
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    @Another User said:

    If ever I were to make a tutorial video, I would force students to create melodies with a minimum number of patches, it's more effort and time, but the result is worth it.

    If ever anyone would ask me, I would not force anyone to anything, but ask him, for his own musical intention, what he wants to do. and than try to help him to streamline his setup and demand him to follow as much as possiblke what his musical idea wants him to do. imho all in music is about realising musical Ideas/intentions and the only reasonable help is to help being as consequent as possible in that.

    The discussion is very interesting in so far, we all (as far we will enter the VSL-Synchronstage universe) will be forced to redesign our personal approach very fundamently in very much aspects. Let us there fore try the same discussion maybe in a year or two when all synchronlibraries are released and we all might had done already some projects with. I'll be at least very curious how our discussion will be than.
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    "I'm still learning from all the libraries. I've improved over the years mainly because I use the libraies more efficiently. If ever I were to make a tutorial video, I would force students to create melodies with a minimum number of patches, it's more effort and time, but the result is worth it." - Guy Bacos

    It is interesting how one of the most masterful and creative composers using VSL still says he learns from the library, which is a testament to the virtuosic musicians who recorded the samples.  A composer can always learn from hearing great performances, which is after all how Mahler, perhaps the greatest orchestrator of all time, learned by hearing as a renowned conductor all of the intimate details of orchestral performance up close.  One can do something very similar with VSL in being able to hear the sound of instrumental combinations and articulations with the most extreme detail and precision.  
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    @William said:

    ....says he learns from the library, which is a testament to the virtuosic musicians who recorded the samples.

    That is true, the depth of a library is so important. And I do mean it when saying, I could be using the same VSL samples, and in 5 years create better demos simply because of using them more efficiently.

    But like anybody else, I get very excited when new lib comes out. 😛
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    "I would make the more decisive difference in respect to the average size of your projects. You do not need care that much about efficiancy, as far you scarcly programm pieces longer than 2-3 minutes excerps and scarcly program larger ochestras or ensembles. But If ever you programmed some 20-30 minutes and larger orchestral music I would suppose, that it is not so much the question, who composed it..." -fahl5

    Even though i tried to create a positive thread in response to the ridiculous negative crap on this Forum, this is a weird, dismissive statement about Guy Bacos music that I cannot let pass.  Fahl5 does not seem to understand that actually composing a piece of music is vastly different from merely performing one the way Fahl5 does.  A performer can do no more than recreate - at best - what a composer actually created before.  A performer is doing maybe 1/1000th of what a composer does.  It is hard as hell to create a piece of music out of nothing - it is totally simple, comparitively, to merely perform one that already exists.  

    When one considers that not only does Bacos compose originally, but also perform and then mix these pieces -  it is mind-blowing.  Also - the statement 2-3 minutes in a dismissive, "oh that's simple" way - it is insulting.  You don't know what you are talking about Fahl5.  Bacos created incredible pieces like the Triple Concerto and Mourning piece for cello and orchestra that are long, complex compositions on a Rachmininoff level.  It is wrong for a performer to dismiss this fantastic actual creation of new music by an actual composer.  I am tired of being put down in the same way -  as if composing is worth less than the mere attempted reproduction that performers do.  

    And now since saying what I actually feel will trash this thread I need to say I don't care what the response is and won't be reading it.  It is useless to create these posts on the internet. 
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    OK that is William as we know him.

    Obviously it is possible that there are different opinions as well as there are different kinds of taste, ambitions, courage and severity in music. It is not worth to dispute that nor to become emotional about that.

    To me it seems to demonstrate a serious lack of appreciation for the great Work of VSL to contaminate the VSL-Forum again and again with that kind of offtopic, and emotional personal harangue. Better let me hear your large scaled work than post useless statements like that. Otherwise we all must think, you simply are not able to, since if you were able to, you  probably would have better things to do than posting like that.😉

    In respect for the great Job of VSL I am not interested to participate or prolong that in any way.

    I 'know' what I am talking about and there is absolutly nothing wrong with it.

    (BTW.: I would not recommend anyone to do anything in music what appears him to be "hard" to do in anyway. How should anyone like anything if even youself did not just enjoyed it to do. That is the miracle of inspiration. Good things are good and not "hard" in anyway. No great composer nor any interpret would ever been able to produce any remarkable amount of music if this would have been "hard" for him and not just his natural way to think and  language to speak.)
  • DietzD
    VSL Team
    DietzD

    I want to ask _everybody_ to stay calm and polite during this discussion.

    Thank you.

    /Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
  • mh-7635M
    mh-7635M

     

    Well, getting back on track hopefully.

    I agree with Guy that there is a limitation to ones' imagination using VI's, but if there is one company that tries to make things better for us it is VSL thanks to their exhaustive approach to articulation.

    I was curious to read Williams' approach as it is different to mine. I compose on m/s and each line is articulated at conception so when I come to programme, I, like Fahl have everything to hand which suits me (having 128Gb ram helps too:-). Having said that, I do see the benefits of programming with one source but in my case, I use the crappiest piano in my DAW and then automate/articulate once I have recorded the part in. I am a pianist too and so this makes sense to me, I also try not to quantize too much and to get over latency, a sharp attack is very useful.

    I have to disagree with Fahls' reliance on inspiration though. For me, composing is not necessarily easy and inspiration is hard won by work - as I see it, one needs to create the environment for inspiration to enter and that is done with due diligence. Even then there is no guarantee inspiration will show up, but hard work and an open mind, ready to go where it might be led, are essential (as is a bit of luck).

    I don't believe in such a thing as a work inspired from start to finish, just as there is no real agreement on what inspiration is, nor indeed what moments in a piece are inspired - a composer may be proud of where a particular harmony led to, but a listener might not view that as particularly inspiring! Most composers will admit to some routine work in their pieces, of that I am sure.

    www.mikehewer.com
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    I write music and I create recordings of works by other composers. The approaches are different due to being creative on one end and trying to be true to the composer's intent on the other end.

    If a work has a lot of legato passages, I might just start by using the legato patches of the various instruments. If the work requires more articulations, I will create each instrument set-up with about four to five slots for different articulations (using Vienna Ensemble). An important thing to consider is the string section you are working with: Not all Violin sections are going to work with a given line. Sometimes, the chamber violins work well, other times it will be orchestral violins. I was working on a symphony and the opening melody of the third movement sounded wonderful with the large violin ensemble. My hope is that the upcoming string section will help fill in some gaps with my compositions. My second piano conerto might really benefit from the use of the new strings.

    I am very greatful that VSL is consistent with their provided articulations. I always want more!!
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    @mh-7635 said:

     

    Well, getting back on track hopefully.

    I agree with Guy that there is a limitation to ones' imagination using VI's, but if there is one company that tries to make things better for us it is VSL thanks to their exhaustive approach to articulation.

    I was curious to read Williams' approach as it is different to mine. I compose on m/s and each line is articulated at conception so when I come to programme, I, like Fahl have everything to hand which suits me (having 128Gb ram helps too😊. Having said that, I do see the benefits of programming with one source but in my case, I use the crappiest piano in my DAW and then automate/articulate once I have recorded the part in. I am a pianist too and so this makes sense to me, I also try not to quantize too much and to get over latency, a sharp attack is very useful.

    I have to disagree with Fahls' reliance on inspiration though. For me, composing is not necessarily easy and inspiration is hard won by work - as I see it, one needs to create the environment for inspiration to enter and that is done with due diligence. Even then there is no guarantee inspiration will show up, but hard work and an open mind, ready to go where it might be led, are essential (as is a bit of luck).

    I don't believe in such a thing as a work inspired from start to finish, just as there is no real agreement on what inspiration is, nor indeed what moments in a piece are inspired - a composer may be proud of where a particular harmony led to, but a listener might not view that as particularly inspiring! Most composers will admit to some routine work in their pieces, of that I am sure.

    Good points.

    And to elaborate on what I was saying, and to be sure there's no confusion, just like in anything we do that has a minimum of depth, whether it's arts, sports or chess, you have to go to school first, whether it's through an establisment, private, or picked it up here and there, from the streets etc  it's still going to school, and during that time you are forced or force yourself to do things a certain way, simply because your mind is not use to think like this, so this becomes a huge asset in the end. You do not ask the person, what would you like to learn or what are you feeling today? Learning does not interfere at all with ones imagination and inspiration to be creative, just gives him more techniques to work with and express himself, but does require efforts to begin with. And regarding VSL, the point is, that certain exercises on how to connect the various articulations and beyond would be highly benificial, especially to the less experimented who wished to refine themselves. So I would tell a student for example, here is a melody, you must use these articulations to make it more expressive. That is the idea, to make it more musical and give him new ways to approach programming, and first thing you know, this all becomes natural to you and effortless. Of course, to each his own, and nothing wrong with doing it any other ways, maybe there are better approaches, but seems this makes sense to me.
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    "BTW.: I would not recommend anyone to do anything in music what appears him to be "hard" to do in anyway. How should anyone like anything if even youself did not just enjoyed it to do. That is the miracle of inspiration. Good things are good and not "hard" in anyway. No great composer nor any interpret would ever been able to produce any remarkable amount of music if this would have been "hard" for him " - fahl5

    That is ridiculous. Oh, so only pure inspiration from on high creates music? Poof! A masterpiece! The greatest composer of all time Beethoven totally contradcits your naive concept. he worked endlessly and with extreme difficulty on his greatest pieces which his notebooks filled with tortured scrawls reveal clearly. This statement shows profound ignorance of the artistic process which involves huge amoutns of labor and difficulty - and yet you lecture as if you know. You don't.

    "Better let me hear your large scaled work than post useless statements like that. Otherwise we all must think, you simply are not able to, since if you were able to, you probably would have better things to do than posting like that. "- fahl5

    Go to my website and you will find large scale works.

    www.williamkersten.com

    Here is a specific large scale work if by that you mean five years of composition, one year of MIDI performance preparation - http://williamkersten.com/music/a/romantic_symphony

    This was not just performed by me - it was composed, orchestrated, performed and mixed by me. Another work -

    https://store.cdbaby.com/cd/williamkersten10

    It is outrageous to dismiss everyone here in your lousy arrogant attitude. The people here are professionals and artists not ignorant jerks as you treat them. You have utterly poisoned this Forum and are in fact a sociopath who cares nothing about anyone except yourself.

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    I, for one, William, appreciate your willingness to say things many others think, but are too politically correct, to suggest themselves. Unfortunately, very few are ever willing to rock the boat, but I would suggest the best way to deal with individuals such as this, is to simply ignore him untill he realizes nobody will indulge or entertain his inflammatory/needle poking comments, and quietly fades in to the distance. You will not get the last word in with him, and I'm pretty sure many people are quietly agreeing with your assessment of him, but I wanted to publically acknowledge that I understand how frustrated you are. Dave