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  4. Once Upon A Midnight Grimm - A Symphonic Halloween Tale
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    You're absolutely right Guy.

    However I do have to correct something stated falsely by fahl5 - the fact is the Grimms collected both children's and "household" tales, and those were NOT for children originally and were later sanitized in order to present them more widely.  But this had led to folktales in general being thought of as children's stories, which is totally false.  They were originally just stores of any kind including adult.  

    The leading scholar Jack Zipes on the Grimms has just published the original edition of the tales.  He gave an interview about the changes made to the real stories:

    Zipes describes the changes made as “immense”, with around 40 or 50 tales in the first edition deleted or drastically changed by the time the seventh edition was published. “The original edition was not published for children or general readers. Nor were these tales told primarily for children. It was only after the Grimms published two editions primarily for adults that they changed their attitude and decided to produce a shorter edition for middle-class families. This led to Wilhelm’s editing and censoring many of the tales,” he told the Guardian.

    Sorry Paul!  I don't mean to hijack the thread.  I just had to respond to that.  
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    Paul, you've done a terrific job and I've enjoyed listening to you piece.  And thank you for including the score.  I will have a listen and study more in-depth.

    As for the sematic arguments, I agree with Guy Bacos that the real focus should be on Paul's work and not semantic and historical detail relating to the title (as interesting as they may be).  It is enough for us today to try and simply enjoy a creation sucy as this and to help each other out with suggestions and ideas that might improve our craft.  Symphonic poems have also been done by many other composers such as Dvorak and impressionisitic as they are, they can also simply be enjoyed for the wonderful and creatively inspired music.  And this is how I look upon Paul's work.

    Its quite a job to get beyond all of the technical details involved in composing and creating for samples in a hyper-critical world and for this I greatly applaude Paul's work, plus I whole-heartedly enjoyed it.  We need more of these types of creative compositional efforts as well as focus on constructive criticism and inspiring rather than creating critical divisions.

    As for constructive suggestions, I've shared some mixing thoughts privately with Paul that are somewhat of a reflection on some of the comments in this thread so I won't repeat them and he has numerous ideas to try out.  However, despite the suggestions, I also really enjoyed it just the way it is.  Its not always necessary to achive technical mixing perfection for a musical piece to simply be fun and enjoyable.

    Thanks for sharing Paul!
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    to return to the thread - concerning the mixing I simply felt it should be in a very reverberant space.  To stop muddiness often one would make lower instruments less wet.  Though that is a normal procedure for mixing.  

    However on high violins I am doing more EQ partly based on going to a concert of a live orchestra while thinking about the problem of sampled violins sounding shrill and tinny.  I listened throughout the whole concert for this effect.  The real violins - in a good concert hall - sounded much darker in the high range than sampled.  I tried to reflect this with a large amount of high shelf EQ.  The music is not trying to reproduce every frequency the instruments create like a good recording engineer  but rather represent what one hears in a concert hall, which is very different.  It is something to think about and then listen to the effect.  
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    Ok just put an end to simply wrong speculation and misinterpretation. The very first Edition Vol I 1812, Vol II 1815 of the Grimms Collection was often incomplete fragmentaric in order to motivate the audience to contribute more tales., It has had very little resonance and was scarcly sold.But even thhere was defenitly no remarkeable tendency to any domination of literal atrocities, those aspect always have been only one aspect among others on the enchanted world of the fairy tales. 

    The most important and influencal Edition was the II. Edition from 1819 which was already explicitly called "Kinder und Hausmärchen"it was of course made by Wilhelm (and Jacob) Grimm and the Grimms themself shaped in this edition the very romantic very sentimental tendency in the understanding of Grimms Märchen and of course not the late 19th century or 20th century or what ever..

    There are no Fairy Tales collected and published by the Grimms which was exclusivly restricted for adults at all. this is just completly wrong speculation. And I am sure you misunderstood profoundly what Zipes intended to outline. And what ever the collected Tale include, does not change the fact, that Grimms interest in fairy tales was notably inspired by Herders Idea of sentimental education by those very old stories, since that was already one of their dominating origin in the history of literatiure in aural tradition.

    In short, William you are musician, no one expects that you must have any deeper expertise in german literature. So it is nothing wrong to admit, that you still can to learn something about a perhaps a bit superficial misunderstanding.

    Still I feel that this is very interesting when it comes to discuss the musical intention this composition refers to. We have wunderful examples in the music of the 19th centuryof music likewise inspired by literature. And how the music refers to and what Ideas inspire what musical intention is of course nothing off-topic as far a composer reffers explicitly to literature and literal terms. Even if myself like to post and discuss concrete music here and make more than enough use of it as most of the users will know. I still appreaciate what makes this forum great, that we do not stop at the very technical details of sample usage, but also discuss the context a compositions refers to.
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    Ok I better edit this. I disagree but will not argue about it any more.  Sorry Paul - though these arguments do keep your music at the top!  👍
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    @William said:

    Ok I better edit this. I disagree but will not argue about it any more.  Sorry Paul - though these arguments do keep your music at the top!  👍

    No problem William. It is an interesting topic. I have been reading a few of the Grimm stories looking for inspiration for a new piece. 
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    @synergy543 said:

    Paul, you've done a terrific job and I've enjoyed listening to you piece.  And thank you for including the score.  I will have a listen and study more in-depth.

    As for the sematic arguments, I agree with Guy Bacos that the real focus should be on Paul's work and not semantic and historical detail relating to the title (as interesting as they may be).  It is enough for us today to try and simply enjoy a creation sucy as this and to help each other out with suggestions and ideas that might improve our craft.  Symphonic poems have also been done by many other composers such as Dvorak and impressionisitic as they are, they can also simply be enjoyed for the wonderful and creatively inspired music.  And this is how I look upon Paul's work.

    Its quite a job to get beyond all of the technical details involved in composing and creating for samples in a hyper-critical world and for this I greatly applaude Paul's work, plus I whole-heartedly enjoyed it.  We need more of these types of creative compositional efforts as well as focus on constructive criticism and inspiring rather than creating critical divisions.

    As for constructive suggestions, I've shared some mixing thoughts privately with Paul that are somewhat of a reflection on some of the comments in this thread so I won't repeat them and he has numerous ideas to try out.  However, despite the suggestions, I also really enjoyed it just the way it is.  Its not always necessary to achive technical mixing perfection for a musical piece to simply be fun and enjoyable.

    Thanks for sharing Paul!

    Thank you, I really appreciate all of the kind words. Yes, it is a lot of work to put together a piece of this complexity, but also deeply satisfying. And I welcome hearing what people dislike and what they like. Getting feedback will help me with the next composition!
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    Hi Paul:

    That is the right spirit what makes this forum a great support for all working with the great possibilities of VSL-Sample-libraries: 👍

    "And I welcome hearing what people dislike and what they like. Getting feedback will help me with the next composition!"

    I hope you never have had any doubt that I had no intention to bother you or anyone, but just tried to honestly express what irritated me from my point of view, without reducing any musical work you spent in your render.

    I still think that to refer music to literature is a mighty move for a cmposer which deserves to be thought about with care and good knowledge of what one refers to. The better it fits your intention the more the relation might unfold 'its porential aswell for the composer himself while composing aswell for the listener trying to connect to the thought on which the music is based on.
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    I want to thank all those who gave me suggestions for help with my mix, including William Kersten, Jay Bacal, synergy543 (Gregory) and Guy Bacos. I incorporated all of the advice on the mix. I am sure I still didn't do as well with the mix as others would have achieved, but I do think it is better. If it sounds awful it is my fault, not theirs.

    Here is a link to the piece on Orfium.

    Once Upon A Midnight Grimm

    I also updated the Soundcloud file. Thanks, gentlemen. You are all fine examples of artist helping artist.

    There were also some gentlemen on another forum who offered helpful advice including Doug Gibson, Matthias Callis and Michael Anstrom, and I thank them as well. Special thanks to Mike Verta for advice on several small things but mainly the structure. I don't think Mike visits this forum, but I thank him anyway. Now that I have finished the thank you thing, where is my grammy?
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    Hi Paul,

    congratulations on a beautifully composed and rendered piece. The orchestration is so well done. I do like the newer version more. Thank you for sharing the full music and score.

    Will you upload this in YT? please do. It should get you a lot of views from a more general audience particularly considering the timeliness of the piece for Halloween.

    Its so much better to be commenting on your music rather the other thread which seems to have hijacked this forum!

    Best

    Anand
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    Hi Armand,

    Thank you for the kind words. And yes, I agree with you, it is a good idea to put our music on YouTube. It seems to be the dominant place for music as well as videos these days. 

    I also agree concerning the other thread. I wish I had not posted there as I get too passionate. It annoys everyone else and sends my blood pressure skyrocketing.

    Cheers,

    Paul
  • PaulP Paul moved this topic from Orchestration & Composition on