@William said:

I agree with Errikos about the tyranny of the atonalists in academia.  Also, I remember becoming enraged at Pierre Boulez, who was making scornful statements about nearly every great composer of the past including Tchaikovsky, Mozart, even Bach.  He was arrogantly, belligerently placing himself over composers who wrote individual compositions that dwarf all of his lifetime output.  There has been a snobbish attitude of many atonalists and their tiny - very tiny - audience that has always been much like the Emperor's New Clothes.  People in their narrow circle have been terrified of not seeing (or hearing in this case) how magnificent the non-existent art is.  Not to agree on the genius of these works would essentially be to admit being stupid or dull in perception.  

However, this is not to say that all atonalism/ avant garde music is worthless.  Some composers like Ligeti, Penderecki,  and Varese (sorry Errikos!) created music that is fascinating and powerful.  I have a collection of Ligeti's orchestral works and listening to them is like entering an unknown universe - fantastic sounds and textures and moods.   So it is the old story:  most of any art is mediocrity.  One has to sift through a lot of junk to find treasures. 

Also, there is also an idea that never seems to be questioned which I find absolutely idiotic:  that only the most technically advanced, only the music that is at the farthest limits of crazed disconnection from anything comprehensible, can possibly be of value.   If you look at the mathematical possibilities of combinations of notes, rhythms, instrumentation, counterpoint inherent within for example Post-Romantic harmonic practice - which is after all extremely complex though tonal -  there is no way that all music which could be written in that style has been in fact written.  The idea is absurd.  And this applies to almost every style. And yet the assumption among the atonalist circles has been "No!  Only the most unknown and previously unheard new style can possibly be accepted.  We've heard all the rest of it before!"  No they haven't. 

One other thing:  in these discussions I find it interesting how no one mentions where music has ACTUALLY gone today - so far beyond the cloistered, dry little worlds of academic atonalists with their sycophantic audience of professors and graduate students:  JAZZ AND ROCK.  

These forms of music - and their many derivations and complications - are the real modern music.  They took the elements of musical composition and performance into areas utterly unknown and new -  even inconceivable to people of the past - and yet PEOPLE LIKED IT!  What a concept!  They don't run from conceert halls with their hands over their ears - they come to listen!  The musical complexity of jazz like Charlie Parker - where composing and performing is unified into a single moment of genius; the raw power of the blues - where intense emotion is translated with the simplest means into perfection of expression; or the indelible, prolific melodic invention of a group like the Beatles - where the simple form of a short binary song is gradually transformed into a complex exploration of moods, thoughts, observations, satirical statements - all of this huge world of truly new yet vibrantly alive and ACCEPTED INSTEAD OF HATED music has been created right under the noses of the atonalists.  There is something hilarious about that.  

And of course I didn't even mention film music - but that is another whole story. 

Go William. I  agree with a lot of your post  if a bit shouty 😐.  I went through said academia and witnessed the clique first hand from afar, in fact I pissed off the head of the dept. one night in the bar! Needless to say, I didn't want to be in their gang anyway.

My defence of atonality is based on its use in an expanded tonal field with clear connections to the past and I too get dismayed at the sheer disregard for a listener with some aspects of modernism. However, I do not think concert music or art music should be written with too much toadying to the audience otherwise it becomes too easy an entertainment the result of which might weaken its transcendental power and hinder creative freedom. It's a fine line but the narrow definition of atonality (as opposed to serialism) has been a bonus to composers from the concert hall to film so far as I can tell.

Mike I agree with what you've been writing here though I didn't chime in.

I want to know the particulars of that scene in the bar.   

Hi William

If you would have read my postings I actually mentioned film music, Gangster-Rap, Music for TV- Advertising etc among many others contexts in which a composer could give his personal answer for the question "Where is music going". And you are right in each realm the laws of musical success are pretty different.

I only have some doubts if the in my eyes very historic debate about tonal or atonal music helps today anything at all to answer this question in any context. At least the Film music as well as the popular music seem to me to have very little pangs of remorse to use musical means far from any tonal order, as long as they get the effect they are looking for.

In short, i do have the impression that in our nowaday productive musical reality (I do not mean academic curricula!) no one asks any more if it is tonal or not first, but just listen to and decide than is it good or not. As you obviously do when you admit the quality of Ligetis definitly not excplicitly tonal music.

@mh-7635 said:

 

Paul (McGraw)

The very fact that you are asking for recommendations as well as citing Howard Shore earlier tells me  all I need to know.

Still, in the spirit of wild hope that you might overcome your prejudice (whilst acknowledging your request).....and whilst realising that a demonstrable comparison of greatness between 2 differing styles of music from 2 different eras is absurd given the subjectivity, I offer these pieces with no more comment. You will get them or not, it is up to you, although a snap judgement on one hearing with closed ears is pointless, and when allied to your vehement intransigence, it make the whole exercise somewhat redundant I feel. Still.....in no particular order and plucked almost randomly from a vast sea of music......

The Shadow of Time

Songline

Matthews symphony.no8

Hi Mike, 

Interesting that I must overcome MY prejudice. Perhaps you should overcome your prejudice? If you see nothing of value in Shore's LOTR, while recommending these three pieces, then that tells me everything I need to know. I had a wild hope that perhaps you would come up with something original and exciting. Once again I am disappointed.

Cheers,

Paul

Hi Paul how do you like that.

2004-VSL-Demo-Samples Orchestralpop

OK this was 2004 just my very first Experiment to work with the VSL-Demo-Samples of a very limited VSL-Demo-DVD when the first VSL Orchestra was just released (and I havent already decided to buy the Cube)

All you hear are those limited Demosamples of the first VSL-Orchestra. Beside exploring  working with VSL The musical Idea was to play around the Countrysong-Vocals I downloaded somewhere at that time with more or less formal, metric and harmonic order and disorder. shifting from one extreme to the other in few bars. Is it tonal is it atonal? Has any scholar forced me to do anything I don't intended?

...No it is just me 2004 playing around to explore the few available free VSL-Demo-Patches. Why not? 😃

What are my prejudices Paul? I like LOTR! Who said I didn't?  Its just not an appropriate work to cite in the OPs' context. Is there something else you are referring to? My taste in music encompasses all styles thanks to a willing ear.

Since I'm not a very 'serious' person, I wanted to soften this at times harsh dicussion or dispute with another wink. I hope nobody minds... (You never know these days.)

Even the greatest were great in all they did, even in the smallest. At least that's what we always think. But the greatest also had hidden pleasures in fooling the audience and scoffing at lesser talented fellow composers. These two excerpts are by no means (a)tonal experiments and were composed merely for (sarcastic) pleasure.

Mozart-1

Mozart-2

😉 Jos

William,

THANK YOU for mentioning Jazz. I am just slowly warming up to Jazz, it is fascinating to me.

 Not intending to inject race into this, it is fascinating to me that Jazz and blues were created by blacks in America who were not allowed in classical music. So many great musicians, Nina Simone comes to mind for example...she was not admitted to conservatory ONLY because she was black, and she gave up playing classical music out of depression. If only she continued, she would have been one of the greatest classical pianists of the 20th century.

But she didnt do so bad in her career anyways.

Considering the historical origins of jazz, what you are saying is accurate since we can say that jazz was created by musicians who would otherwise have gone into classical music and would have probably created  better 20th century music, but instead they created jazz!

There is the famous story of how Horowitz was stumped by the great Art Tatum when he improvised  'tea for two' on the piano with more complexity in 10 minutes than what Horowitz could in 2 weeks.

Besides all this, without jazz and blues there would have not been rock n roll and pop, and everything else. So we owe all of this to the poor slaves from the 18-19th century What a history!!

 Anand

@mh-7635 said:

What are my prejudices Paul? I like LOTR! Who said I didn't?  Its just not an appropriate work to cite in the OPs' context. Is there something else you are referring to? My taste in music encompasses all styles thanks to a willing ear.

Your prejudice seems to me to be in your contempt for the audience. The OP asked "Where is music going?" from which I took it as a given that he is referring to concert music. Just do a Google search for live concerts of the LOTR symphony. Film music, like the concert version of LOTR, is being performed by live orchestras all over the world to sold out venues. For some orchestras, they could not meet payroll if they did not offer a few concerts of quality film music every year. Putting it as directly as possible, orchestras must abandon (and they increasingly are) all "new" music that is not audience friendly. And they can not stick totally to the established repertoire because the reaction of audiences is lukewarm to pieces they have heard too many times. There are a few exceptions of course. Audiences can't get enough of their top favorites like the  Dvorak 9, Beethoven 9, etc., but how many times can an orchestra play the short list of audience favorites? 

The future of concert music, if it has one, which I increasingly fear is in doubt, will be for composers to write music that audiences want to hear. Just like Rossini and Verdi and Bach and Mozart and Tchaikovsky and Brahms and all the other greats. Sadly compensation has been divorced from audience appeal due to lucrative grants and university salaries. This is the biggest, but not the only, reason why I despise atonal and avant-garde music. The very survival of concert music is at stake. 

Paul,

I have no contempt for the audience, the proof being I write music that is NOT divorced from the tradition, your assesment is misguided and based on assumption. My music is recongnisably tonal as well as sometimes more adventurous harmonically. In my more 'dissonant, toxic, stinking, poisonous' pieces, all the signposts an intelligent listener needs to follow the discourse are present too - not the attitude of a composer who dismisses an audience. I do not have a 'who cares if you listen attitude'. Perhaps you actually should listen to my Adagio for strings or the Partita Concordia before you actually say anymore....

hewer

If you're reading now, I assume at the very least that you heard an appeal to the listener whether you liked the music or not.

Hi Paul

I am not so sure that atonal music would be to blame IF concert music dies. I am just basing this on evidence. About 90% of the works played by orchestras in Boston, where I live, are based on tonal music ranging from Bach to Shostakovich. I've rarely if ever heard atonal or avat garde music. Having said that I dont think concer music is dying.

To me the reason why concert music is less popular is because people in our modern society are increasingly  glued to smart phones and the internet need instant gratification in everything. Few people have the time or inclination to drive and go sit in an orchestra hall for a 2 hour symphony. The feeling of visceral sound is no longer compelling to the tormented souls of the modern world. When I do manage to drag some friends they are so amazed at what classical music really is, not some vivaldi in the background playing in the radio. But that only lasts for a bit and they are back to their busy lives.

But I agree that its a good idea for orchestras to play from the film repertoire, such as John Williams or any of the greats, to keep attracting audiences and to make money.

I dont think any potential demise of classical music has atonal music to blame.  No one has time for symphonies or string quartets. They want quick rhythmic beats they can download on itunes and go jogging.

Best

Anand

@Jos Wylin said:

Since I'm not a very 'serious' person, I wanted to soften this at times harsh dicussion or dispute with another wink. I hope nobody minds... (You never know these days.)

Even the greatest were great in all they did, even in the smallest. At least that's what we always think. But the greatest also had hidden pleasures in fooling the audience and scoffing at lesser talented fellow composers. These two excerpts are by no means (a)tonal experiments and were composed merely for (sarcastic) pleasure.

Mozart-1

Mozart-2

😉 Jos

Hi Jo's

I am honestly embarrassed by the great examples you provide 👍

"To be serious" please you are the right one to give us and the world finally the ultimative History of the greatest clusters of the old european music-tradition of at least the last 500 years. So what are you waiting for, that is the answer we need to decide the real historic importants of atonal composition and its meaning for the answer of the question "where is music going?"

So it is up to you to decide this discussion 😉

@Errikos said:

And then compare all that to this decade we are proudly (and relatively peacefully - should I say numbly?) traversing?..

Yeah, that's what I thought...

I cant get enough of Salonen's music. He is a great company for working,

I am listening to this now: 

 I would say we are traversing quiet a decade, if only we are willing to keep our ears open while ignoring the noise.

Oh obviously I have to explain what my intention was:

I just like your Postings, since they are funny.

And yes I thinc in musik fun is imho always one possible way to reasonable answer. "seriously" 😛

So all is fine I am very glad about your contribution here!

I dont think any potential demise of classical music has atonal music to blame.  No one has time for symphonies or string quartets. They want quick rhythmic beats they can download on itunes and go joggin

 I would say we are traversing quiet a decade, if only we are willing to keep our ears open while ignoring the noise

Amen Anand.  A voice of reason and common sense.

@mh-7635 said:

I dont think any potential demise of classical music has atonal music to blame.  No one has time for symphonies or string quartets. They want quick rhythmic beats they can download on itunes and go joggin

 I would say we are traversing quiet a decade, if only we are willing to keep our ears open while ignoring the noise

 

Amen Anand.  A voice of reason and common sense.

Puh!!!!! The lamentation about the "demise" of traditional music is so old as tradition is!

Oh how fearful douting are people talking of "demises" like that! How could they forget, that nearly no one is born with a particular penchant to insist on any kind of historic tradition. We all first hear what attracts us immediatly, and most of us sooner or later expiereince after the difference of what is superficial and what is sustainable with enough breath to stay meaningful even through the changes that always happen.

There is nothing wrong with "quick beats", "jogging" or "downlads". If our tradition is alive it will always go on to select everything in everry time what deserves to be remembered.

And be sure it will be not the Discussion about any imagined alternative between tonal or atonal music, but simply those composers and their works who created in what ever musical language unique and convincing musical masterworks. And why not with quick beats, why not for the download, why should we not prefer listening while jogging. I at least do remember well how much I enjoyed listening Prokofievs Pianoconcertos on long travels in car and love those Concertos therefor much more than for the few Life concerts where I've heard them also.

Keep your mind and our tradition open for everything what might be worth to be remembered and I am sure nothing of real value will "demise" at all. (at least klassik-resampled.de will it keep with the incredible power of VSL-Samplelibraries alive and online for you for the next decades so there is no reason any more to fear any demise at all 😛)

@mh-7635 said:

Paul,

I have no contempt for the audience, the proof being I write music that is NOT divorced from the tradition, your assesment is misguided and based on assumption.  My music is recongnisably tonal as well as sometimes more adventurous harmonically. In my more 'dissonant, toxic, stinking, poisonous' pieces, all the signposts an intelligent listener needs to follow the discourse are present too - not the attitude of a composer who dismisses an audience. I do not have a 'who cares if you listen attitude'. Perhaps you actually should listen to my Adagio for strings or the Partita Concordia before you actually say anymore....

hewer

If you're reading now, I assume at the very least that you heard an appeal to the listener whether you liked the music or not.

Mike,

Please do not confuse my carefully considered conclusions about atonality (traditional not narrow definition) and the avant-garde, based on many years of experiencing many such compositions, as an attack on you personally. I must have mentioned this several times, but the only individual I have singled out for criticism is Cage, and he deserves it.

A composer should, IMHO, be expected to discern why the Dvorak 9 is a better piece of music than the Dvorak 2 for example. This level of critical listening and the ability to understand artistic merit is vanishing, or possibly already vanished. It's all just a matter of personal opinion and personal taste, right? Wrong, it is not.

What made me think you have a prejudice (a judgement without a reasoned conclusion based on evidence and/or experience) is among other things this quote. "However, I do not think concert music or art music should be written with too much toadying to the audience otherwise it becomes too easy an entertainment the result of which might weaken its transcendental power and hinder creative freedom." Read that sentence to a stranger and ask them what they think about the author.

As far as your music is concerned, I listened to the first two pieces on the page you linked, and part of the 12 piano pieces. I did not have time to listen to all of them. If you are looking for feedback, or reaction, I would say that your pieces that I heard are thoughtful, intelligent and often attractive. These pieces are primarily tonal, and firmly rooted in western musical tradition. It is not a matter of all music being great or terrible. Hence my call for greater discernment. All Dvoark symphonies are not equally great. All recently written music is not equally terrible. The pieces on your link are far better than any of your three examples of great compositions this decade. I would much prefer to listen to your music rather than to anything I ever heard by Boulez. And he is supposed to be phenomenal, but he isn't.

Paul

Anand,

While I generally agree that attention spans of 2017 are not what they were in 1917, My opinion is that attention span is not the dominant issue regarding concert music. The LOTR Symphony is about 2 hours and 12 minutes and contains six movements, yet it sells out venues all over the world. Bruckner and Mahler Symphonies, as you know, not brief, are more popular with audiences today than in 1917.

The audience for classical music today is much smaller than it was 50 years ago. However, I do have hope. One positive development is the greater availablility of orchestral musical instrument instruction in school. Together with the availability of lower priced, but usable, string instruments from China, more young people are participating in orchestral music. Many of these students will grow up with an appreciation for classical music.

Paul

Paul,

definitely. glad to think you dont feel that classical music is dying. 

LOTR is different from Mahler or a Shostakovich, as you very well know, more than me. LOTR has soothing passages and melodies. Mahler's music is harder and takes a while to get used to...particulary his use of unconventional orchestration. It requires tremendous attention o follow the complex structure, as opposed to film music, which by intention is instantly gratifying. Compared to Shore,  I would say John Williams is more of a cross-over between classical music and film music since he uses highly sophisticated orchestration and melodic innovations. Every film score of JW is almost equivalent to a tone poem, of the likes of Stauss, although much diluted for the audience. Of course you must know all of these more than me, but jusy saying.

I do know that LOTR is played by symphonies, but so is Sting and Pink Floyd and Zimmer. That doesnt make them equivalent to classical works. But I agree that Its smart of orchestras to play from the popular repoertoire to keep auidiences coming.

I am very upbeat about the future of classical music. As Benjamin Zander says, 

Cheers

Anand