mh-7635,

Why not post under your real name? I believe using ones real name on the internet fosters a more congenial environment for all.

Who do I rate? By that I think you mean who do I admire and spend time listening to their music? The fields of choral music, especially religious choral music, and symphonic band music, have many composers of note. The way this usually works is I name a few, then the proponent of atonality trashes them, thinking they have thus won some kind of point. However, I will play along and we will see what happens.

Among choral composers Eric Whitacre has had enormous success. Among symphonic band composers Phillip Sparke is well worth a listen. Most of the best orchestral writers have gravitated towards film music. There are many of these in the past, Korngold, Herman and Miklos Rozsa immediately come to mind. Living today we have a clear connection with concert music in the Lord of the Rings Symphony by Howard Shore. 

But no need to look further than right here at the VSL forum. Guy Bacos and William Kersten create marvelous, well crafted orchestral music. 

My statement that atonality is old is not a misleading, false, or deceptive argument. It is simply a fact, and was stated as a fact backed up by factual evidence. Calling a fact an opinion, even calling it specious, does not advance the discussion. I do not have a time limit for aesthetic movements. What made you think that? Tonality dates back to the dawn of human history. The greek philosophers of antiquity wrote about the various modes. 

What do I propose for young composers? I would tell them to write what is in their heart. I would tell them that if they want a large audience they need to utilize the tonal language of music. I would tell them not to worry about being "original" or "finding their own voice" or "speaking to our time." If they master their craft, then if they have something original to say it will come out of them naturally.

Yes, institutions have probably ruined many potentially fine composers. Thankfully that seems to be changing. I do not agree that anyone needs to "make themselves relevant." How do we judge what is or is not relevant to our current society? Isn't Eric Witacre relevant? If not, why not? 

Hi fahl5,

I'm sorry that I do not know your real name so I cannot address you by name. 

Tradition is not at the core of my thinking in this matter, although traditions are generally important. I think that much of modern art and music (and even politics) in the 20th century was all about rebelling against the accumulated wisdom of humanity to that point. I do not think of traditions as necessarily wise, so tradition to me is not an issue in this case.

Why do you feel a young composer should write in the atonal style of 100 years ago, but not in the classical style of 225 years ago? Why is one acceptable to you and not the other?

Peteris Vasks, Sergei Lyapunov, Nikolai Kapustin, Takashi Yoshimatsu and a few more. Or should I also mention Messiaen, Glass, Gorecki? They mastered the material and formed their ideas into really beatiful music, maybe with the exception of Glass - not my favorite.
Leopold advised his son, Wolfgang, not to forget the audience and he assured his father that he always kept that in mind. All that so called modern music, maybe with 31-tones scales (Christian Huygens - 1629-1695), all the programmed chaos, it is not my cup of tea. Acceptable to me is music, that caresses my ears and uplift my soul and doesn't spoil my appetite.

Raymond

Sergei Lyapunov

Sergei Lyapuno

Peteris Vasks, Sergei Lyapunov, Nikolai Kapustin, Takashi Yoshimatsu and a few more. Or should I also mention Messiaen, Glass, Gorecki? They mastered the material and formed their ideas into really beatiful music, maybe with the exception of Glass - not my favorite.
Leopold advised his son, Wolfgang, not to forget the audience and he assured his father that he always kept that in mind. All that so called modern music, maybe with 31-tones scales (Christian Huygens - 1629-1695), all the programmed chaos, it is not my cup of tea. Acceptable to me is music, that caresses my ears and uplift my soul and doesn't spoil my appetite.

Raymond

Oh it is not that easy with tradition and rebellion,

You know that the extremly ingenious pronounced unconventional Styl the sons of J.S.Bach composed was very obviously kind of a harsh rebellion against the very ambitious counterpointal styl of their Father.

It was exactly that rebellic modernism of C.P.E.Bach and his Brothers Wilhelm Friedemann and Johann Christian that influenced Mozart to become the most influencal composer for the musical language we nowaday think is "tonal" "healthy" and so on. You do not know Beethoven if you do not know that already his personality was kind of a constant revolt against so much was seem up to him unbudgeable law of "accumulated wisdom" in music.

To be honset the "accmulated wisdom" 'of our musical tradition would scarcly have accumulated anything if it would not includ all innovative "rebellions" of the last 1000 Years history of written music. Now it is up to our wisdome to decide what exactly are for us the healthy, productive inspiring aspects of this wisdome history.

And you did not understood me: I do not feel at all a young composer should or even could seriously compose in any historic Sty.le ( he may and should study all historic styles which might have inspiring interesing aspects for him to develop his own musical language.) But a composer is the one who decides himself what he wants to compose his own works in his own personal musical language.

It seems as if you reduce the whole and rich music-history to kind of the decision between Tonal or atonal. I fear in that kind of simplyfication one nearly is in danger to loose every musical wisdome that might be accumulated in our musical history and tradition.

The truth is imho the oppisite. There never has been that simple alternative to decide. In all historic Styles all composers have had the chance to chose more or less difficult to understand harmonic situations. And already Mozart for instance belong often enough to the most rebellish composers when it comes to dissonant harmonic situations. But of cousxe he was not at all the first.

Already 1555 Nicola Vicentino has gone with his Archicembalo (which has had 36 Keys per Octave) far beyond the tonal freedome the just temperated 12 tone music provides not to mention the highly chromatic and in respect to the tonal order most rebellish composers like Gesualdo da Venosa and many others of his period.

Actually for composers who really "accumulated" the "wisdom" of our musical tradition Tonality has never been a "yes or no" question, but more kind of a large range of different harmonic complexion completly available for the composer with the necessary knowledge to handle it.

And if you ever was perseverant enough to seriously work through Schönbergs Harmonielehre , you will know, that Schönberg definitly controls absolutly every aspect and nuance of this range.

So if you want to accumulate wisdome how to musical reasonable treat harmony, study and apply Schönbergs Harmonielehre (which is in effect completly "tonal" since it was written long before the invention of the dodekaphonic technic.).

I am more on the side of fahl and mh on these arguments.

Paul, firstly I fully respect your opinion. But I have a question. Suppose all composers in the 16th century thought that traditional music of that time was good enough since it sounds 'good' and attracts an audience, do you think there would have been Bach who adopted the tempered scale and wrote the well tempered clavier? Same with the 17th century, if everyone thought Bach was the ultimate fo all music, would there have been Haydn and mozart? And suppose at the end of the 18th everyone thought Mozart is the ultimate, would there have been Beethoven with his Eroica or Grosse Fugue?

And in the mid 19th century no one could get out of Beethovens influence, even Wagner who was so obsessed with B that his first symphony sounds like it was written by Beethoven, but yet Wagner broke tradition by writing music for drama and paved the way for modern film music. And by late 19th Mahler and Strauss were already coming dangerously close breaking the tradition again.

To somoone living before Bachs era, I believe even the music of Brahms would have sounded cacophonic, let alone Mahler or Strauss.

I guess your argument would be that there is a sharp break after Schoenberg due to atonality. However I would imagine that the change from church modes and diatonic scales (pre 15th century) to chromatic scales (16th?) to the tempered scale (17th) were all probably equally ear shattering for those times.

Perhaps atonality is a larger leap and it will take time, maybe another 100 years before it is commonplace in concerts.

But I would imagine that thousand ears from now, if humans manage survive, someone will be listening to Salonene or Ives on their headphones while journeying from Mars to Jupiter on a weekend trip to home. The soundscape so perfectly fits the stars and heavens I think if we were in the same room listening to this music  you would agree about the orchestration. Besides the quesiton of tonality, the orchestral colors created by some modern composers are simply outstanding. Isnt that fascinating? 

I am not at all saying everyone today should write like that. We have Mr Peppercorn in these forums who is perectly happy writing great compositions in the viennese classical style. I am myself a tonal composer (yes I need to show my work here unlike msot of you!), but I do not feel that atonal composers are a sham or con artists. Many of them are highly talented and are exploring new directions. I respect their efforts in the same way as I respect your music.

Anand

btw fahl brought up 'harmonielehre' by Schoenberg.

This is my most favorite book on tonal harmony. He explains not just what, but also why. Very scientific approach ..

fahl5,

Perhaps we are experiencing a language barrier. I have no complaint against changes in style of music. I can enjoy Copland's work in his Americana period almost as much as Rachmaninof. I enjoy both Wagner and Brahms, although they hated each other. In fact, it is only atonality that is offensive. Even minimalism, mindless though it may be, is not actually offensive.

You seem to be equating the complete abandonment of tonal musical language with a style change. I do not. Atonality is a complete break with the very foundations of western music. And please, I have read over and over in the literature and in forums the argument that the late romantic masters had carried music forward as far as possible, and Schoenber and his minions were merely continuing that natural progression of chromaticism to reach atonality. I once accepted such specious arguments, but do so no longer. The two, tonality and atonality  cannot coexist. Audiences, for the most part, understand this and reject atonality.

And, I see nothing at all wrong with a composer writing in the style of Bach or Mozart or any other style they like. Perhaps in this sense I am far more liberal, progressive and forward thinking than others who would close off those avenues to composers. Your post makes it seem that you would also close off atonality to composers. I find that diffiuclt to understand. But if you eliminate tonality and atonality, I suppose you propose no new music should be written at all?

Anand,

You are correct that I see atonality as more than just a style change. So your first three paragraphs do not really apply to me. They would apply to someone who sees atonality as merely a change in style. Of the previous musical epochs, I suppose the greatest change was from the polyphonic Baroque to the homophonic Classical era. In comparison to atonality, a very negligible change.

I am very glad that you do not condemn composers like Wayne Peppercorn. I'm glad you mentioned his name. He is another exemplary member of the VSL community and I enjoy listening to his music. I am afraid that fahl5 is not as liberal in his acceptance of composers that do not fit into his desired mold.

I did not state that all composers who have written atonal music are con artists or shams. That particular distinction is reserved for John Cage. Are some atonalists just being lazy and wanting the title of composer without doing the actual work? Of course. And university faculty members typically make $150,000 per year (starting salary) plus benefits that no one working a non-government job could even dream of receiving. I'm certain many composers have been tempted by those university checks to churn out the atonal mess and will go to their graves defending it. But most atonalists were and are just people like anyone else, trying to do something good. Of course, good intentions do not forgive ugliness, but they are not con artists like Cage.

@Paul McGraw said:

 Atonality is a complete break with the very foundations of western music. 

Paul

I respectfully disagree to this.

Without a foundation in tonal harmony, voice leading and counterpoint no one can become a genuine atonal composer. So it is not a complete break but rather heavily rests on tradition. What more could be evidence other than the fact that Schonberg, the father of atonality, writing one of the greatest books on tonal harmony!

I am assuming of course that we are not talking about con artists, whereever they are (I consider them a waste of time) but considering only the best composers of avant garde music today...those who are both firmly based on tradition and also are performed by orchestras. Thats why I like Salonen as an example. You should hear his conducting Mahler or Beethoven...some of the best recordings Ive heard. It is with this background that he writes his own music.

And I hear in thse composers a lot of the foundation very rigidly followed, You can hear voice leading and sophisticated counterpoint in Corgliano, even some beautiful romantic passages. Have you heard John Williams' concert pieces btw? They border on atonality, and this is from someone who gave us some of the greatest tunes of our time!

To give an analogy, in physics there were Newtons Laws until about 1905, and Einstein's relativity and quantum mechanics competely broke away from the old laws. They could not have done this without Newtons laws, but the new laws are completely different although built on the old laws. In fact Einstein himself could never get to accept quantum mechanics although he was one of the founders! it was too radical for him and he didnt believe nature cannot be deterministic. But quantum mechanics is the most successfully verified theory of the microscopic world, so sadly even Einstein was driven by his personal feelings and not reality.

The only differrence is, in music there are no laws, but just rules. These rules can be broken to make even broader rules. This is all to create larger and larger possibilities withing the infinite landscape of music.

This is the way I see western music.

Perhaps my situation is unique from others here. I was not brought up in the western classical tradition as a child, and I literally progressed from Bach to the present time over the last 25 years, entirely on my own will and desire (i.e., my parents never pushed me on to this;)). At each stage, I thought the music that came after that was pointless. I can vividly recall hearing Brahms Symphony no 1 about 15 years ago, and being totally befuddled, even annoyed. To that point I had only heard Beethoven and earlier. Only leater I realized how beautiful it was, and how the themes was woven with absolute mastery. I felt the same way when first hearing Stravinsky. It took me some time to appreciate the innovations they were doing at each stage and each one was a learning experience. I feel that I am again at a cross roads, with the music of today. 

Best

Anand

OK I try to make my point very sshort:

No music "should" be written. Musc "want" to be written.

Music is written beause a composer want it to be written. No concept, no ideology no convention or allmighty Law does the Job to intend music and to invent/ create music.

I do not close any way to compose at all. Yes personally I tend to feel uncomfortable if I do have the impression, someone avoids to develop his own musical language, and just imitates the habits of others. But for me the time of conflicting ideologies have been past away that was the problem of the 20th century.

OK, I have composed very few things, but when I used harmonic means of tonality and atonality when ever I feel the certain piece and what I intended to do would make profit from but I confess I do believe there is finally no decision that could be made wether a music is tonal or atonal.What you hear is what counts.

Atonal compositions could not evade the simple factt that every ear judges harmonic relations based on the more or less simple mathemetic relations of different tones. Atonal pieces therefore not so seldom charm with harmonic situations that even remind similar situations in Tonal compositions, as tonal compositions become interesting when the hamonic situation becomes more or less ambiguous. To make it a "yes or no question" is for me is if you try to paint the incredible variety of Colors of a sunrise with black and white. Both allone neither "Yes" nor "no" neither Black nor white neiter tonal not atonal gives you the truth of acoustic understanding of tones and harmony.

In my eyes you overrate the concept of 12-tone music aswell in his importants for the composers and compositions of the 20th and 21th century as in it's musical reception by the listener.  He always will hear tones and their relations however easy or complex their relation will be. And they can be and are both esay and complex in each musical language. It is the composer who decides that for every single note he composes and it is the listener who decides it for every single tone he listens.

@Paul McGraw said:

I did not state that all composers who have written atonal music are con artists or shams. That particular distinction is reserved for John Cage. Are some atonalists just being lazy and wanting the title of composer without doing the actual work? Of course. And university faculty members typically make $150,000 per year (starting salary) plus benefits that no one working a non-government job could even dream of receiving. I'm certain many composers have been tempted by those university checks to churn out the atonal mess and will go to their graves defending it. But most atonalists were and are just people like anyone else, trying to do something good. Of course, good intentions do not forgive ugliness, but they are not con artists like Cage.

This is a very different perspective which I dont know much about since I wasnt formally educated in music like you. I would even agree with you here that Universities become the haven for mediocrity posing as avant garde.

The litmus test for me is, can they compose a symphony or sonata or any other tonal peice in a competent fashion? I think this has to be the basic requirement. (Thts why I was quipping that Wayne is way more qualified to appreciate modern music, if he wishes to)

From what you tell me Cage couldnt probably have done it, but I dont know. 

I am 100% sure Corigliano or Williams or Salonen or Boulez can churn out tonal symphonies if they wanted to.

Best

Anand

fahl5,

Thank you for trying to communicate in English. I know it must be difficult. I took German classes in univeristy in the early 1970's, but I can remember nothing after all these years. I admire your ability with English.

While I understnad your points, it was not Paul McGraw that placed such importance on Schoenberg and serialism. Modern music histories and musicologists have clearly done that. Check Groves, or even Wikipaedia.

I believe you are correct that the human mind is always looking for relationships and patterns. That has been well established by research. That is why it is particularly difficult for audiences to grasp any meaning in atonality. Could there be people who can follow, appreciate and enjoy atonality? I think so. Many people report that they very much enjoy atonal sounds. Modern jazz often uses chord constructs including the 11th or 13th which sounds to many atonal. Yet there are poeple who really like this type of jazz. However, jazz was previously THE primary popular music in America. Classical music was once almost as popular, being depicted frequently in movies. In my home town when I was young we had 3 classical stations. Today there is only 1 and it is part time. Take a look at this article about music preferences.

Click here for article

So what do both jazz and classical have in common that has alienated audiences?

Please do not feel that you missed out on much by not going to University. Knowledge is available to all who are willing to read and study. No one needs a university to gain knowledge. It might help in some areas, but it is just as likely to simply be an indoctrination.

Anand,

I agree that Williams does like tone clusters and bi-tonality, but he does not verge into atonality as far as I am aware. Williams is a chameleon (and I mean that as a complement) who is so good that he can write whatever he thinks will work for his audience. I can't think of anyone in music history who has been more widely heard and admired than Williams. And I really am not sure what Williams would write just for himself. He writes for his audience. 

I also agree that Williams could easily write a wonderful symphony.

Why don't we end with these points of agreement. I have some errands to run and it is getting late in the afternnon.

Paul

@Paul McGraw said:

why don't we end with these points of agreement. I have some errands to run and it is getting late in the afternnon.

Paul

Hahaha sounds good. Life is more important to attend to.

Best

Anand

@Paul McGraw said:

So what do both jazz and classical have in common that has alienated audiences?

just quickly adding that my impression was that without Jazz and blues there would have been no rock n roll or pop or beatles or led zeppelin and everything that followed...Jazz is another music that fascinates me for its complexity and sophistication. The reason for its decadence was that folllowing the end of an era of great black muscians who started it, the blacks in America moved on to rap, and now the rest of the world is catching up to rap....just see the success of 'Hamilton'.

I dont intend light another fire here😉 will sign off, for now. 

Thank you for your well-meaning comment on my awful broken english. Yes it seem to me more cruel to expect foreigners to speak german, than to let them suffer under my poor english abilities.

@ Universities:

Just to correct a possible misunderstanding I am very pleased by Anands detailed knowledge of even sophisticated musical subjects. But when I understood him right it was he, who has had no formal musical education. And yes Paul he is a good proof that personal interest is an unvaluable power to gain knowledge even without the support of an formal education.

For me it is a little bit different, my personal interest was already in my youth as strong, that it actually leads me to an pretty rich formal musical education, and I am deeply grateful fo that. Thats why I do have no problems with Universities at all.

@Schönbergs historic importants is different from his importants for the 21th century composer

IMHO it is something different, if you talk about Schönbergs importants for musichistory which I admit should not be underestimated, since he and his pupills Berg + Webern obviously were very influencal for the composers of the 50th and 60th in Germany as in the USA.

But.... this is already half a century away from our situation today.

No, today you can not make any revolution with a 12 tone or otherwise serial composition. And I do have the impression there is today also very little interest in any musical revolution at all. If ever one would like to write any dodekaphonic or serial composition today it would be as if Mozart ttried to write baroque Fugues or Churchmusic. It could not be anything else than the attempt to gave an historic composition technic a new chance since it might have an interesting aspect for the composer who draw back to those historic forms.

But it does not make any sense to "compose" dodekaphonic as academic duty (if it should be more than a stylistic study) as it does likewise make for me no sense to think we do need more Mozart like Sonatas or Symphonies. Yes Mozart is likewise an very interesting subject for stylisitic exercises and/or academic analysis.

But imho a composer of contemporary music does more than just imitations of any historic style. If he is honest, he struggles for his own path and musical language.

@ Jazz, Classical, Country

BTW: It seems as if the audience of Jazz has shiftet to Countrymusic in the USA. (Thats a pitty, since Jazz has always been very impressive innovative and seem to me much closer to our old european music than "country" however the Classical music does not seem to be that little heard in the USA when I believe the Statistic of the Article you linked above. As far as I know the classical "interest rate" in germany seem likewise neither very high but also not that bad. I do not know anythong concrete about the interest in contemporary composition.

Comment withdrawn.

fahl

just wanted to quickly clarify that I am not particularly against universities or formal education. As a matter of fact I am a university professor, but in engineering and not music. We do need universities to allow academic curiosity to fluorish in any field.

In my comment all I was saying from my own experience in academia is that this is a haven for mediocrtity but this is unavoidable. There are a lot of great people in academia too, not to mention the greatest scientists who ever lived!

I did take a few courses in conservatory but do not have a music degree.

And talking about classical music in America, I live in Boston where there is are so many amazing musicians and live concerts, many of them free. https://www.classical-scene.com/ We have some very exciting conductors like Benjamin Zander, and this was the place where John Williams spent many years in the Boston pops.  

Living here Ive always felt classical music thrives, maybe its a bubble.

Also I should point out that I dont think Jazz fans moved to country music. Jazz music also thrives in north america, with so many festivals...just that its not as popular as it was in the Jazz era.

Best

Anand 

@agitato said:

The only differrence is, in music there are no laws, but just rules. These rules can be broken to make even broader rules. This is all to create larger and larger possibilities withing the infinite landscape of music.

Best

Anand

I think you are partially correct, in music there are no direct laws governing a composer's aesthetic choices.  But music is sound, sound is vibration, there are laws governing the behavior of vibration, and biological laws governing how we experience vibration.   There are nonphysical laws, i.e. one's integrity, capacity to love and be loved, to be kind, fair, just and patient. We call it well-being or being in tune with one's whole being, to my mind and heart it's really about attunement with the absolute, the divine. We live in a law-governed cause-and-effect cosmos. Trying to determine the cause and the effect is the difficult part. Music can help us appreciate the harmony that pervades everything, which makes it lawful.    The cultures that reject music will die out.  

Jerry