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  • Orchestral template and workflow

    Hello all,

     I am a classically trained composer, I use Sibelius 7.5 and VSL SE vol 1+, and using MIRx konzerthaus Grosser for panning. So my target is having a template with all necessarily plugins(reverb, eq..) working with Sibelius.
      I have watched many videos online about template reverb, EQ... and i would appreciate some feedback to improve my sound output and workflow.
     So my understanding is the following:
    1- composition comes first before any effects and plugins, with the right arrengment and orchestrations there should be not much to fix.
    2- Midi editing and CC programming second, to give realistic dynamics and shaping phrases. I know CC2,7 and 11 the main ones, any other CC important? like for offbeat..?
    3- this is the most erea i am not sure about, how to create depth? with reverb and Eq? after that using imager for loudness?... is it possible to have all plugins ready before composing?
     -If i have template with the plugins ready will that effect step 1 and 2, or it will improve?
    - can i have that working good with sibelius?
    - Is there any important CC i should pay attention to? can i edit it in Sibelius?
    - Finally does Vienna suite comes with a complete mixes, in my catalog it does mention something about it but not in details?

    Thanks to all, your time appreciated.
    Asaad


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    Hello Asaad

    Until now VSL-Libraries have been recorded mainly dry so that we all are able to put them into the room we want. A disadvantage is that you need to do this work anyway otherwise it sounds not as we are used to.

    Now you have several possibilities.

    A) The easiest way is to use MIRx. If you are using the presets which are given for the most instruments Panning and the position in the depth of the room is made for you - fix, more or less. I personally would use those presets with a bit a lower wet-amount than they are originally offered by VSL. The results are quite good.

    B) A great helper as well is the big brother of MIRx: MIR Pro. It is as easy as well to use it because you only have to put your instruments some where on the stage either the way we are used to or in your own style. Beside this feature (placing the instruments on the stage wher ever you want) you are able to choose much more: Microfone positions in the room, stereo setup of the microfones and you have built in effects for changing all the acoustic wishes you have... Advantage: There quite no limits Disadvantage: As often with such tools, their strengths are often the weakness as well. All the adjustable parameters you also can bring far away from "good"...

    C) You can do the mix in the "old fashion way" with a panner, a convolution reverb and an EQ. Then you need to make the following tasks: 1) Draw a stage with the positions of your instruments on a paper (Example) 2) Decide how many different depth you like and open for each depth a group-Track (sum) in your Daw. 3) Insert a Convolutionreverb in each Grouptrack. 4) Try several IRs and choose one which can let the instruments sound as far a way as possible (100% wet). Now you can set the distance by balancing the dry/wet-balance. (One of your questions) So you are able to install 4 acoustic distances with 4 Group-Tracks. D) Route then the closest instruments through the closest acoustic distance and so on. 5) The farther away instruments sound the more their highest frequencies are damped. This effect can be simulated with an EQ in each "Distance-Track".

    D) A total realistic sound (how we are used to with real recordings) you get with samples with the integrated room sound. This is what VSL will offer us with the coming up Synchron-Stage-Samples-Series. With this samples we will - hopefully - have nothing mor to do with panning, giving depth etc. All those things will be done. But here as well: the force of those samples will also be the their weakness: We only will have those synchron-stage-sound.

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    Keep in mind that C) - even if it seems not to be very difficult - needs a lot of experiences for having nice results it is an art so to say to get good mixes, because the instruments from close to far need to have the correct volume EQ-settings etc. Because you do not have any limitation here you can reach super mixes but also very bad ones (the strength is the weakness). The SUITE-Effects do not come with template presets so far (as I know). But they have a lot of presets for any instrument for leting it sound in an other way (more powerfull, more harsh, more distant, more clear,...).

    Further: Keep in mind: Sibelius is OK for setting the score but if you are interested in a maximum of reality concerning the selection of the "correct" articulations, using x-velocity and using all the other controllers you should move your project into a daw (answers to your qustions). As a first fact for this advice: It starts with the setting of the volumes of tones: Sibelius does not offer 127 different signs for reaching all 127 midi-volume-steps. within a daw - no problem: Watch this short video

    Mixes with A) or B) are more or less very easy to do because MIR(x) mixes for you. And if you not choose a too much wet ratioo the results can sound quit good. Music with A) and B) tends to sound often a bit equal over the time. You can fight against this "matter" by using different venues.

    Example A) & B): French_Parade.mp3 (Guy Bacos)
    Example C): It shall show what I mean with "no limitations" concerning the venues, depths, effects etc. within the same mix.

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    I hope that my post could show all the different possibilities and that you can make the decission which way you want to go now. A) & B) are shorter C) can be very long and if you want to wait a bit you can choose D) and your mixing-problems are probably completely solved 😉 Also Sibelius and eventually a DAW was a question...

    All the best

    Beat


    - Tips & Tricks while using Samples of VSL.. see at: https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/vitutorials/ - Tutorial "Mixing an Orchestra": https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/mixing-an-orchestra/
  • Hello Beat,

     Thank you for your detailed post, much apreciated.

     in fact i am using MIRx now and it is good, and MIR pro sounds like will be best mixing option for me at the moment.

    As second stage do i need to use any plug-ins from Vienna suite just to enhance the realism.? and maybe for mastering.?

    Thanks again

    Asaad

     

     

      


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    @asaad said:

    ...As second stage do i need to use any plug-ins from Vienna suite just to enhance the realism.? and maybe for mastering.?

    If you go with MIR pro you will nothing use anymore. It comes with all the necessary tools in it for a good sound.

    Tipp

    As I mentioned above you have a lot of possibilities within MIR for treating the sound. This also can lead to the oposition of "an even better sound". So for starting I would use it as it starts by default. The only parameter I personally would change is the dry/wet ratio over all (30% wet / 70% dry - as starting point). Mixes with 50/50 seem often a bit too "roomy". The rule for using audio effects in general is that an effect is used too much when the listener can recognize it... This belongs to MIR Pro as well. ... Happy music!

    Mastering

    "Mastering" means a lot today. For the rock and pop people it means as loud as possible, some music styles need to be mastered for reaching the belonging sound the listeners are used to,...

    Mastering for sample musicians probably means "reaching the best possible sound so that it sounds good with headphones, speakers in the car, the kitchen and of course for the Hifi listeners as well. So how to get the best result? My opinion is to compare the own sample productions with similar real played productions. This comparing procedure can show very good and fast whether an own mix has some problems or not,... How to repair or bring the sound as close as possible to the real mix is a long story for itself. The long and the short of it is that you sould separate the mixing and the mastering process - also with some days between those two procedures "mixing & mastering".

    And yes, for the mastreing process you need a good monitoring system (good studio monitors, headphones for making the right decisions), a well treated acoustic situation, at least one reference track, and probably some effects such as a good EQ, eventually good compressor (single band, musltiband), a limiter, but also measuring tools for keeping the same balance between the channels, a correlation meter, .... which finally all could lead to the VSL-SUITE effects 😉.

    Unfortunately there is still one necessary and very important thing which is not able buy: Experinces - and a lot of them... Keeping out the best of an audio file is an Art as well... Having all the tools for doing the job is not enough. Just having colors and paintbrushes does not make you an artist... that's the case for doing the mastering-job as well.

    All the best

    Beat


    - Tips & Tricks while using Samples of VSL.. see at: https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/vitutorials/ - Tutorial "Mixing an Orchestra": https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/mixing-an-orchestra/