Hi Errikos,

Sorry, I've missed your earlier posts on Zimmer, I just thought I'd give him a little credit as I thought there was a bashing on the cards. I am glad that you can appreciate his work - work under severe restrictions a lot of the time.

In the Gladiator score, I did clock the Kije rip in the camp after the first battle in Germania but I guess Zimmer was under pressure to get close to it by Scott. I can't quite recall what Crowes' theme is, is it the vocals, the spanish guitar music, or the rather lovely music that accompanies the battle slow motion scene (which I always think of as a sort of brotherhood theme), or something I've missed? The worst rip I have ever, ever heard was by Horner in Troy. When Helen is bought to Troy, the temp was so obviously the Sanctus from Brittens' War Requiem. The rip was so blatant my jaw must've dropped. I subsequently found out that the Britten Foundation were on to it from a musicologist whose opinion was being sought after - he didn't hold out much hope for Horner niether.

I suppose I meant to say that Zimmer is incessantly parodied (actually just the word copied is more appropriate as I really don't mean to imply any comedic connotation) because of his success and yes, he does repeat himself. But he was an innovator with a distinctive voice- a voice sought after by directors, hence the reliance on proven ways of writing. Let's not forget that film making in general, is more business than art and models and formulas are good practice - even in the early days, you are undoubtedly aware that pianists employed to play along with silent movies could find sheet music written specifically for every conceivable emotional situation - they'd have been lost without dim7th chords for scary suspense! Risk taking is more often than not anathema to Hollywoods' producers and who can blame them given the costs and livelihoods involved.

Who wouldn't pull out the loops, big impossible drums and arpeggiators for six figures. I'm with you on that and about the fact that one should be able to write music without the Music for Dawmmies vol.1. In fact, when I was in advertising, I often presented demos way off brief.  This was for 2 reasons - firstly, because I could and deliver more than one on time and secondly, I too was bored and frustrated at the lack of imagination and reliance on stock aesthetics - although this was more to do with me not really flexing enough creative muscle when writing. It goes without saying that the piece that took 15mins to crap out more often won the day, although I did a few times, encounter very receptive creatives who where willing to break the mould. I don't mean for that to sound bitter, I'm not, I made a good living from media especially when I began to understand that the rather simple (musically speaking) and use of the familiar in writing for media, is precisely what is required and absolutely necessary for end user comprehension. As a result, I began to appreciate the artifice (manipulation!) in media, but that doesn't necessarily imply art although the 2 are not mutually exclusive.

I take your point about Jarre and Lean et al. It is interesting to note though that these guys where working mainly prior to the computers intervention in music and so they had to rely on their knowledge and wits. I met Goldsmith during the recording of Medicine Man and was fascinated to see the 3 synth players hidden under a mound of keyboards in the live room with the orchestra, all being recorded at the same time - no sequencing at all. John Williams is an anachronism in terms of practice too, but it is no coincidence that he is also one of the greatest ever, why, because he is trained and his musical mind is not restricted by all things binary.

I couldn't agree more with you about libraries actually -  I got fixated on those damn spiccatos. VSL is still the only library that seems to have the right approach, one that considers an educated composer along with the more 'instinctive' ones. Given the trends and success of their rivals, I am pleased to see VSL are going to produce wet libraries - hell, we may even see a violin 2 section and never have to do a transpose trick again, not that I ever did mind you, I just used other libraries......:-)

BTW, would love to hear some of your work...

Let's leave aside the plagiarism-debate for a moment. Every composer borrows. Williams has done it, Goldsmith and Horner as well, and Zimmer does it, too. That doesn't diminish the value of a composer, as long as it's not the only thing he does. ;)

I have great respect for Zimmer as an artist, but I have my difficulties with his overall approach to the film music business. He wrote some of the most memorable themes and he certainly knows what movies and/or directors need, no doubt about that. However, my problem lies with his dominating the film music business. There are Zimmer's composers at Remote Control, Zimmer's instrument samples, Zimmer's epic drums and now Zimmer's course on Film music. What's next, some random generator creating Zimmer-esque textures for independent film makers?

Can we blame him for dominating the market, for establishing his brand, for expanding his influence on contemporary film music? After all, people seem to like his sounds and phrases, buy his albums, attend his concerts etc. The answer is, probably not, but as someone wisely put it: Great power comes with great responsibility.

(Thank god Goldsmith never filed a patent for his 15/8 music, that would have been desastrous. *jj*).

This last post disturbs me because it conflates very different things.  Goldsmith and Williams "borrowed" only in the sense that their music strays into the territory of other composers after clearly creating its own style.  James Horner consciously and deliberately lifted entire sections of music and then disguised them as his main themes.   John Williams did not do that, neither did Goldsmith.  Their main themes are original and unmistakable as their own style and creation.  An example of Horner's plagiarism is  "Willow" main theme copied directly from the first movement of Schumann's Rhenish Symphony, with little added fanfares.  Or the main theme of an early score of his, C.H.U.D. -  a direct, thinly disguised quote of Charles Ives "Unanswered Question."  Or his score for "Sorceresses" which is a direct quote with orchestration intact of Shostakovich 5th Symphony 2nd movement flute and harp soli.  None of these are credited.  

Mike: Thanks for joining in the humour. Without wishing to go into the completely unacceptable Crowe's theme, the great rip you missed (you got some that I missed), was the main theme, straight from 1492. It seems Scott wanted to re-use Vangelis' theme and obviously could not for obvious reasons. Hans is not to blame for this of course, but to credit him with a great theme when clearly it is somebody else's.... I am both astonished and happy that The Academy has yet to furnish this master with 3 or 4 Awards for his "offerings" (people seem to be missing this when considering Hans' dominance the last few decades). The only one came in 1995 for a very different score, one that the copy-paste arpeggiatorks today would find hard to imitate. And whatever little sounds great in his orchestral scapes, he does employ an army of actual musicians in his bunker. On that point I have to say I am almost equally tired of the Thomas Newman fad. Those static forlorn string-chords were fantastic in Shawshank 20 years ago, but mercy already...

You also said two or three times film being entertainment for the masses (therefore why ask for great music). I agree that it has become this way, but as a composer I miss the past. I miss the times where "films" like Airplane, Top Secret, Conan, Gremlins, E.T., Indiana Jones, etc. were scored way-way above their worth. And it's not that I maintain that it has to be complex or it's crap. I've mentioned before how I love some of Carpenter's scoring, or Brad Fiedel's fantastic Terminator music.

Where did you hear VSL is releasing wet libraries?! Would that not be paradoxical with all the effort that went into MIR and the Suite? We shall see I suppose. Their greatest by far - "unforgivable" - ommission has been the lack of a Violins II section. Hopefully this will be remedied but I am not holding my breath after 12 years.

Thanks for the music request, I shall arrange this privately.

quioloy: It is only of good composers that we should be speaking, and they borrow only to a point. And there, when the material is instantly recognizable, they have so much personality of their own that the borrowing is assimilated, hence not bothersome. My issue with Hans is not this though. I am stupefied that some of you credit him as being a 'memorable themes' writer; "some of the most memorable ones"!.... What bloody themes are we talking about? Maybe you are in your 20s, yes? (No offence meant, I wish I were). And not really watching cinema from the '30s up to the late '80s? For the most memorable themes have been composed by people named Steiner, Rozsa, Tiomkin, Waxman, Newman, Herrmann, Korngold, Mancini, Rota, Goldsmith, Jarre, Barry, Morricone, Williams, to start with. And we are talking about 'Themes' proper. Themes that have been 'covered' by choirs, singers, instrumentalists, jazz bands, etc. a hundred times over. Long after the Dim7ths for the scary bits and Aug5ths for the magical ones that pianists/organists provided in silent film. What can a singer, flutist or guitarist play of Hans in a concert? I credit him for establishing his own style - that is, applying Garage Band song structure methodologies to symphonic writing - but that is it. I hate the style, it is the most limiting style of symphonic music I can think of to apply to film (dodecaphony maybe would be another one?). The absolutely mesmerizing imagery of Inception called for a composer with the widest possible orchestral palette instead of 3 hours of didi-dada-didi-dada-didi-dada-didi-dada over some boring brass, and so did TRON. 

I certainly don't consider Hans an artist in order to respect or disrespect him. That people buy his stuff is immaterial to me, for people also buy Bieber, Swift, and - what is it called? I forget - Gangrene style?

You are very right in wondering about random generator creating Zimmer-esque textures for independent film makers. They are here already and proudly used by many.

William: Carmina Burana in Glory, The Planets in Star Trek II, the list is endless really, but Horner was actually a symphonic musician.

I decided not to comment further but derail the thread to something really great - the FULL score of Conan (you shouldn't have mentioned it, Errikos), one of the great film scores of all time:

Conan

Also this is the one I have which has Prague Symphony orchestra performing - it is a fantastic performance of the whole score including things not even in the film -

Conan new recording

@Errikos: *lol* I'm not in my 20's. Wish I were. :) I'm born 1974 and I've grown up with Zimmer's early scores some of which were indeed memorable like Backdraft and Lion King. To be honest, I tried in my post to be respectful to Zimmer and his fans, thus emphasizing what he's good at in order to hide the fact that I'm absolutely not into his music at all. I'm vastly into Barry, Goldsmith, Williams and the world of truly symphonic scoring.

@William: And I meant by "borrowing" re-using themes, motives and phrases that already existed, regardless of who wrote them in the first place. I'm probably the biggest Goldsmith-fan on earth, but, boy, he borrowed a lot from himself, though there also crazy similarities to some Mahler works as well. But yes, I admit: If you narrow the discussion down to ripping off other people's works, this is nothing I'd ever accuse Goldsmith and Williams of. So maybe we meant two different things. Again, I just wanted to calm the discussion, not heat it up.

quioloy

That is true.  I don't mind self-plagiarism though.  The ultimate self-plagiarist was Miklos Rosza, who started basically re-writing the same score over and over again.  Though they were still near-perfect for the films and he is one of the greatest film composers.  Examples are "Thief of Bagdad" which is one of the finest scores of all time, not to mention "Ben Hur" and "Quo Vadis," and a great later score for the odd sci-fi film "The Power" featuring a cembalo.  Those were all highly varied,  But you can hear in some of his later, less well-known scores the repetition, such as "The Seven Per Cent Solution" which though very good and perfectly functional for the film, uses the same breakdown of "Passionate Main Theme", with rising minor third modulations,  "Diabolical Villain" theme with tritones, "Passionate Love Theme" with - again - rising minor third modulations, etc.  

I sabotaged this thread somewhat and apologize!

Thanks Errikos for starting a thread on this travesty.

When I saw the ads on Youtube for HZs "course" I was quite simply amazed at the trivialities spewed by HZ. ("this is a question and an answer.." ."ogh thats a dodgy question"...and so on...what crap LOL)

In fact I thinkHZ is a genius is saying the most banal and trivial thing, but some how making it sound profound. His music unfortunatley does not reflect that. What he 'composes' is exactly what he intends to say. And both have no depth of content. He is the embodiment of a definition of "minimalism" where it means "not knowing anything."

The fact that this charlatan is giving lessons on film scoring is a good thing, since it reveals his utter lack of knowledge in music. There is really nothing that he can talk about since he knows nothing about harmony or orchestration. In the videos I hear him talking endlessly with absolutely no point being made. I struggle to find any meaningful content in what he says, but with no avail.

And compare that with this one by someone one who actually knows music! ... well one of the Jazz greats actually:

https://www.masterclass.com/classes/herbie-hancock-teaches-jazz?utm_source=Paid&utm_medium=YouTube&utm_term=Aq-Prospecting&utm_content=Video&utm_campaign=HH

Here is an equation that sums up HZ's musical career:

The power of marketing, business acumen and some basic musical knowledge = success as film composer

Cheers

Anand

And btw Thanks for all the interesting anecdotes about Jarre, Williams Goldsmith.

To Errikos,

Any chance you could comment or start a thread about John Williams as a film composer? I think he is truly remarkable....the true heir of the early Hollywood greats. Its a pity that someone in the thread compared him with HZ. So disturbing that one cant tell the diff. between JW and HZ stealing from other works.

Also any thoughts about John Coriglianos' score for the The Red Violin? I felt that this score was one that stood out from the last 30 years...in the sense that it was a piece of classical music but yet a fantastic film score. Apart from many similar ones by JW.

you write very well and would love to hear your thoughts.

Anand

"Directors/producers these days however are utterly uncultured so their standards of music are as high as the composers' they hire, hence the film music of the last 20-25 years." - Errikos

This is what motivates the bad film music now.  And the lack of culture is actually in film music specifically as well, in that there is no longer a tradition of symphonic film scoring.  It ws essentially lost in the 1960s when rock and pop songs started to be used instead of a complete developed score which was the norm even in smaller productions.  John Williams returned to the classic film scoring style, and his influence was positive, and there are a few great exceptions like Howard Shore's score to Lord of the Rings and a few other individuals,  but the tradition exemplified by Max Steiner, Korngold, Tiomkin, Bernstein, Rosza, Herrmann, and many others is largely gone and replaced by simplistic "minimalism" or smearing pop songs over scenes - a truly lazy way to use music in a film.  And the producers have no concept of this loss whatsoever.  As I was writing in my previous rant the deterioration from the great George Auric score to Cocteau's Beatuy and the Beast - a powerful post-romantic symphonic work - and the new Compose-By-Numbers score of the banal remake is shocking.

I can't believe that I'm actually saying this but remember a time when film music had themes?  I miss themes and long for the days when film music could stand alone without the visuals.  I think themes began to die out during the 90's with the advent of the documentary film style that became popular with the "found footage" genre and all of it's derivatives.  This was especially prevelant in TV scoring.  Beautifully constructed themes just weren't a good fit to the shaky camera and awkward zoom in/out and rak focusing techniques in vogue at the time.  I guess Taiko thuds, block chords and arpeggiators are more appropriate scoring as if a raw "score" syncs better then a developed and polished one. Not that I necessary agree with that but now we get back to "cultured" or lack thereof.

I find what William mentioned about the intruduction of Pop/Rock styles during the 1960s very interesting.  I've always had mixed feelings about Pop music used in place of the established scores.  But to build on William's point, Pop scores aren't just lazy they're cheap attempts by studios to sell tickets or CD's or downloads or all the above.  Not to mention the need to promote yet another diva/rock band on to the music scene.  As usual, it's all about the money.  I could go on and on with a list of films scored with completely inapropriate Pop songs created solely for ticket and record sales.

However, in some cases, Pop music just may be the best fit for a film.  I admire Williams' work immensely and he has never disapointed me but I'm not sure a Williams' score would have had the same effect on a film like Goodfellas that the montage of carefully selected Pop songs did.  Goodfellas had absolutely no original music whatsoever.  Not even incidental music. 

Also, scores completed in a Pop or Pop hybrid style can be refreshing at times.  I know many forumites role their eyes when I mention this but Giorgio Moredor's score for Scarface is still one of my all-time favorites.  But, in this case, Moredor wrote those Pop songs specifically for the movie and they were not tailored for a mass market or to propel the career of a diva.

There is another factor in film music scoring being trivialized and reduced to a medley of songs (or even just one) and that is how directors are not necessarily  keen on giving to a composer the sometimes huge significance that a great film score can have.  They retain more power as director if they control the music.  The notorius example is Kubrick, who had Alex North compose an entire score for "2001" which was an ambitious full-fledged symphonic work, and then rejected it and went with his temp tracks - not even telling North who went to the premiere thinking his music was being used!  

A great music score can be as significant as the image in a film - such as is the case in Hitchcock/Herrmann's "Vertigo" - and not all director's are that dedicated to the artistic accomplishment of someone else.   

agitato: Thanks for the kind words Anand, I'm glad you agree. I don't know what kind of thread I can begin on John Williams, certainly not merely a thread of worship, but one where some aspects of his craft can be elucidated. Suffice to say two things: a) He is the only composer for film to my knowledge (not active before 1960) where for every cue, no matter how unimportant and pedestrian a scene or transition is, the music is a complete symphonic passage, proper orchestral writing in every way. Never what most -if not all- others do in those situations (a couple of chords with a line on top, etc.). Same with his full-blown action scenes where he knows better than us that the nuances are going to be buried under the cacophonous raucous. So why does he write proper polyphony and voice leading in these situations? I somehow don't think this question will be addressed in the guru's seminar...

b) His ear for orchestration and rhythmic vitality is surpassed only by his total, supreme fluidity of composition. It is this aspect in my opinion combined with the others that probably puts him at the top spot. Plus, he is not a one-trick-pony, listen to his scores before Jaws and hear the differences; almost another composer.

jasen: I would also like to avoid a misunderstanding. I am not against a talented pop or ambient soundtrack if the film calls for it. Putting Vangelis aside for the latter, I really like the first two Ocean's soundtracks. Just exquisite taste. Need I mention Saturday Night Fever? Hugely inspired songs dressed in Disco (which was what the movie was about). Also, before Williams "repatriated" the fully symphonic soundtrack, there were great soundtracks by people like Jerry Fielding, Marvin Hamlisch, or Lalo Schifrin to name a few. That was proper music too, and oftentimes interesting (people at that time availed themselves of some of the sonic experiments of '60s chamber music). I just remembered Dave Grusin's The Firm soundtrack - just superb!

My big problem is the damage that has been done to the genre of symphonic soundtracks per se, and the chromosome-deficient people who think they can map one genre's methodologies (say pop), to another, and get laudable results. And what about that "Epic" shyt? Arghhhh! Even Hans doesn't touch that, despite it bein a direct offshoot of what he does. Compare that to Herrmann's Hangover Square; an actual piano concertino...

WIlliam: I really have to set one evening aside for this Cocteau film at some point. It sounds very promising.

Georges Auric is one of the great film composers, and Beauty and the Beast is one of his best scores. You can get a really good recording of the score:

Beauty and the Beast

And Orpheus is also a Cocteau/Auric film that has a great recording:

Orpheus

On top of that both Beauty and the Beast and Orpheus are on Bluray by Criterion. Two of the greatest film fantasies and scores.

The main difference between film writers from the 1930s through to the early 1970s is the fundemental understanding of harmonic structure and the build up of an orchestral score. 

Sometimes the score can be very sparce and effective, and sometimes it can be full blown and very effective. 

There's an argument that these old style scoring methods are not relevent in the 21st century. Indeed, they probably haven't been relevent since the mid 1980s. John Williams actually revitalised the orchestra in the 1970s for a while. He was very influenced by classical works and did not mind borrowing from them. A lot of his scores were also influenced by army band music. Quite strident at times and very much 2/4 march time. What he really excelled at was the writing and use of memorable melodies.

Film producers liked memorable melodies way back. One of their less understandable tricks was to stick a song in a film, almost as if it came out of nowhere. It used to happen a lot more than you would think. It's a selling tool, just as later on, John William's melodies were always synonomous with the film. You hear the music, and you think of the film. Very profitable arrangement.

Into the 1990s and suddenly films were discovered by the ostinato. The ostinato seems at first to be a mild cold, but it soon infects every aspect of filmscore writing and you soon realise this a category 4 outbreak. The ostinato is about as easy a way of scoring as there probably is, next to plain and simple noise.

Plain and simple noise is mostly what you get today. Otherwise known as Sound Design.

So that's where we are today. Sound Design.

Sound Design in film and TV scores is just another way of saying you're an untrained, uncultured monkey that can't write music for shit. What???? I hear the cry.

Well if that's not the case, then fucking prove it.

I sat through a film recently at the cinema called Life. The entire film was awash with fucking noise from beginning to end. It is the worst irritant imaginable. The film was crap which didn't help. The only people that are immune from this illness are under the 25s. 

"Sound Design in film and TV scores is just another way of saying you're an untrained, uncultured monkey that can't write music for shit." - PaulR

It is so refreshing to hear a blatant statement of the truth every once in a long while!  

"The main difference between film writers from the 1930s through to the early 1970s is the fundemental understanding of harmonic structure and the build up of an orchestral score"

This is an apt comment emphasizing the absolute lack of harmonic and orchestrational interest in  ostinato/arpeggiator scores. They could not have proliferated had they called for such qualities, for those won't magically materialize with the press of a mouse-button. Hence, the complete reliance on rhythm (elementary one at that), and loud volume.

Now of course I know what Paul is referring to with his last comment but, just to clarify, Sound Design per se is a demanding, rewarding, and exciting area of music making when done seriously to which I've had the great fortune to have been exposed, and I believe there are many a film that would be served superbly by a talented, proper electronic music composer-programmer (by 'electronic' I don't mean 'dance', and by 'programmer' I mean sound creation and code), TRON2 being the first one that jumps to mind (and was scored badly!). 

As far as orchestral music is concerned, if you really want to find out your worth in this genre of composition, turn the power off, light a candle, and grab a pen (and/or an acoustic instrument), and the end result will accurately reflect your inspiration, talent, and skillset. In essence, the real you! Let's see how "Epic" you can sound without the presets...

"...if you really want to find out your worth in this genre of composition, turn the power off, light a candle, and grab a pen (and/or an acoustic instrument), and the end result will accurately reflect your inspiration, talent, and skillset." - Errikos

You left out the wig.