Mixing question

[daerp]

Looking for a little advice. There are multiple faders to use in my setup. Vienna Ensemble Pro has a mixer. So does Digital Performer. And there is another mixer in Vienna Instruments Pro. Of course there are all the various sliders for vel x fade and slot x fade and all the other cc controllers (I use the Remote App with these), but you can choose to set volume using a slider or a button in the matrix windows. Lots of options if one wants use faders for, say, automated mixing.
Which mixing board(s) do you use primarily? Maybe none. Maybe just use velocity cross fade and expression controllers?
And of course there are wheels and sliders on my synth. 

Any thoughts or advice?
Paul

[Paul McGraw]

This is a BIG questions. Like the OP, I would love to get some tips or advice from some real power users as well.

[Fabio Biolcati]

@daerp said:

There are multiple faders to use in my setup. Vienna Ensemble Pro has a mixer. So does Digital Performer. And there is another mixer in Vienna Instruments Pro. […] you can choose to set volume using a slider or a button in the matrix window. s Lots of options if one wants use faders for automated mixing.

Hi both, Pauls.

First, let me say that usually there's no a unique way to achive results, sample library domain is no exception;
you can use faders to do the same thing (eg. raise or lower instrument volume) as a master control or,
more effectively, to control parts of the overall sound. It's just a matter of workflow.

Let start with VI Master Volume. It speaks for itself: anything you load in it, the output will be same. You can feed your DAW mixer from here: need more trumpet over strings? Just push MV up.

A cell consists of Slots that have their own volume. If you build unisono where 1a is a flute and 2a an oboe, adjust the relative slider to desired blend.
Also, you can load different articulations "horizontally", eg fading a sustain into tremolo 1a to 1b. If you want the latter be softer, then lower 1b volume slider. This will not change the absolute (MV) volume of your output.

This is true also when you spread articulations along matrices.
If you create a matrix for sustains and one for pizzicatos, you may need to balance the volume between them: I experienced this tecnique with another cheaper library where the keyswitched instruments were too difficult to control, so I loaded single articulations and switched back and forth between MIDI channels because I needed pizzicatos always a bit back than sustains: tweaking the internal mixer (volume of matrix nameA vs nameB, in VI lingo) was the answer.
Also useful for a player doubling on his instruments, say flute and piccolo; assigning a matrix each weapon, you may need to adjust power of the switching winds maintaining the professor in place on his chair —same pan and reverb amount in DAW track.

And then there are your DAW mixer sliders.
Track volume sliders and a Master track volume, again. Add groups and VCAs sliders and you have the full picture.

In short, you can pre-mix your orchestra in VI and leave track sliders in place.
Or doing the same —or leaving everything "flat" into VI— then rely on DPs mixer to build the scene, using automation to highlight a solo or a section.
For the latter, I usually build groups (eg woodwinds) balancing players to each other and then putting them as a section under a VCA slider to blend with the whole orchestra (you can still continuously tweak each player's presence via its track volume slider in the group —some sort of Russian dolls approach to mixing).

So, just one slider can be enough, too many can put you in frightening hesitation. The opposite is also true. 

Don't be afraid to change your approach with time. Workflows grow wiser according to experience and situations you handle.

Hope it helps.

Happy New Year.

[jasensmith]

@daerp said:

Looking for a little advice. There are multiple faders to use in my setup. Vienna Ensemble Pro has a mixer. So does Digital Performer. And there is another mixer in Vienna Instruments Pro. Of course there are all the various sliders for vel x fade and slot x fade and all the other cc controllers (I use the Remote App with these), but you can choose to set volume using a slider or a button in the matrix windows. Lots of options if one wants use faders for, say, automated mixing.
Which mixing board(s) do you use primarily? Maybe none. Maybe just use velocity cross fade and expression controllers?
And of course there are wheels and sliders on my synth. 

Any thoughts or advice?
Paul

All the above...

Assuming that we are talking about a purely orchestral context, not Pop/Rock hybrids etc. 

I don't mess with the mixer in VI.

For brass and winds I try to keep everything mixed within the VE host.  All the faders remain at the default level 0.0 db or whatever it is.  All instruments are panned accordingly.  I use Vienna Suite so I add EQ and converbs to each Channel/Track/instrument again within VE.  I start with the presets then adjust to my liking.

For strings, the same rules apply except the default fader levels are adjusted.  I layer my strings so OS strings are at default, Chamber at half and Solo at a quarter.  I don't have AS or dimmension.

Depending on the instrument, percussion and keyboards can be a little tricky, so they might need some adjustments.

So I use Vel X Fade in conjuction with Expression to achieve my volume levels. except for percussion and keyboards.

If everything is done correctly then there's no need for any other mixing.  Unfortunately, it doesn't always turn out that way.  For example horns and bones can be sensitive sometimes so i end up using compression on those after I bounce the track to audio which would be added to the track in my DAW.  Also, sometimes some tracks just peak too loud at certain points that i didn't notice before so some automation is necesary or more compression.  Solo instruments may need more attention as well.

I make sure that the master bus in the DAW doesn't go into the red.  If it does, I link all the instrument faders together then lower the volume of all the instruments until there's no more red.  I'll make up for this lose later in the mastering stage.  Try not to get into the habit of adjusting the master bus fader to correct the overall volume.

So as Fabio said, "there's no unique way to achieve results."    

[daerp]

Many thanks for the detailed responses. They confirm much of what I am learning through experimentation. I also use Vienna Suite so I put the effects in the VEP mixer. What I DIDN'T know is the role of the faders in VEP. That seems to make sense to me. Jason, your specific directions re various instrument groups  are very helpful. 

Also, Fabio thank you for the idea of using a separate matrix for pizz and sus. I hadn't thought of that. Sounds like a good plan to keep the matrices as simple as possible. I find I don't use the very large VIPRO Presets very much at all. I think those are for the power users among us. 

If anyone else wants to jump in on this and share ideas, I think that would be very helpful for all.

Paul R

[Fabio Biolcati]

• …Using a separate matrix for pizz and sus. Sounds like a good plan to keep the matrices as simple as possible.

Not a proprietary idea, indeed; credits must go to Max Hamburg, he suggested me after learning it from Beat Kaufman. Can't say who's Beat told by…

Anyway, it helps to keep things clean and handy.
Instead of a strip of different articulations in strips, you have them in piles; this way if row 1 contains staccatos, you can put as many staccato variation you need side by side each other (eg softer to harder attacks, or whatever is in your wildest dreams); than row 2 can hold detacheés of various leght.
This is very handy when using "speed" as a switching articulation controller: cells get activated from left to right and in between —also backwards— according to how slow/fast you play on the keyboard / the shorter/longer note value you input in your DAW. Not easy to choose what the "middle" value/articulation should be —maybe a sustain from another matrix?—, but really amusing and effective in action.

Note that the overall number of keyswitches in your VI instance remains the same: I'll hit as many as on the "y" side than the "x", if you work in reverse way. The positive side effect is that VI reads always KS a bit earlier for matrix than articulation (not sure for this, but if it is true, then the better) making managing things smoother.

Hope it helps

[daerp]

Very helpful. Thanks, Fabio.

[Fabio Biolcati]

Also, matrices can be changed in their order in the pile; doing the same to swap articulation sequence with cells is a matter of endless copy-paste, almost in VI standard —maybe VI Pro has drag 'n drop functionality?

[PaoloT]

Swapping slots in VI should be done by dragging with a modifier key (I can't check if it is Command or Option, now). Not as easy as dragging and dropping a full matrix, but quite fast. Paolo

[Fabio Biolcati]

@PaoloT said:

Swapping slots in VI should be done by dragging with a modifier key (I can't check if it is Command or Option, now). Not as easy as dragging and dropping a full matrix, but quite fast. Paolo

You're right. Option swaps cells, Command copies.