Balancing Levels

[mw design]

Hi, I now rethink my Maintemplate. I made something like a Orchestral Hit (Sfz and FP Articulations on all Instruments), to make sure that all the Instruments have a balanced Volume, by doing that I increased the Velocity Crossfade to the Maximum. I also listen over and over again in Mono and bypass Reverb and so on. So Im now happy with the Result, Now I can go and using the Velocity Crossfade Expression only, but I discover that the whole Perception of Volume changes when I now play a Legato (while Velocity Crossfade is at the Max Levels), it seems that the Legato is louder than the Sfz

So the Question is How to approach a Template with well balanced Levels ?

Regards

[Dietz]

Hi,

even if you don't use MIR Pro or MIRx, there is a list on p. 36 of MIRx' manual, showing the "Natural Volume" used by these applications for individual Vienna Instruments. This could serve as a starting point for your own template.

Kind regards,

[mw design]

 

Thank You Dietz,

Yes this List is great, So If I use those Volume Settings the Velocity Crossfade would be fine.

Then I want to find out How I can relate this to the 3 Instances of Reverb Depths Iam using Early Reflections. So in the List for Example the Timpani natural Volume Level is at zero, but then I cant have the Roomeffect on the Hybrid Reverb Instance

Can You Please explain How This goes together.with a Early Reflection Setting on the 3 Maingroups Strings,Woodwinds and Brass ?

[Dietz]

Uhmmmm ... sorry - I'm not sure that I really understand the question ...?

[mw design]

Ok, I just want to have a overall balanced Volume Levels, so that I only use the Velocity Crossfade Expression when highlighting a Sequence or a Crescendo/Diminuendo thats my Goal. I think I can figure out the perfect Volume Settings when I make the velocity crossfade to the max settings first, then I hear whats standing out or what would standing out when it comes to a Climax. Now I have 3 different Depth Reverbs and maybe its more about setting up the eraly Reflections proberly. I have the MIRx but because of the huge Amount of System Performance I cant use them now. On the MIRx You easily put the Sound into the Distance and select the natural Volume. Ok. But I want to achieve that Distance Sound using Early Reflections, a short Reverb without a Tail.

I have using the Settings described in the List now, I dont understand how can be natural Volume of a Horn Ensemble be like - 6,5 while the Strings Natural Volume is at -15 ? I thought the more the distant a sound the quieter it gets, but  then it seems to be a paradox of the bright Trumpet sfz in the Distance

Iam bit confused, ok, but I want to learn. :D

[Dietz]

Every Vienna Instrument comes with its own, individual volume. It depends solely on the recording gains of the samples (which is set to capture the sound with optimum level) and doesn't relate to an absolute reference.

"Natural Volume" is simply meant to bring the instruments back into their typical dynamic relation (... which isn't an absolute magnitude either). Of course this means that the headroom for the loudest instruments like the Tamtam has to be guaranteed, which makes the overall loudness quite soft as soon as you don't use those loud instruments. Simply raise the output volume of your mix, then, or bring up all individual players by the same amount.

... I'm not a fan of the "early reflection plus reverb tail"-approach to mixing and don't use it myself, so someone else will hopefully chime in with helpful information.

Kind regards & good night,

[jasensmith]

@Dietz said:

Every Vienna Instrument comes with its own, individual volume. It depends solely on the recording gains of the samples (which is set to capture the sound with optimum level) and doesn't relate to an absolute reference.

"Natural Volume" is simply meant to bring the instruments back into their typical dynamic relation (... which isn't an absolute magnitude either). Of course this means that the headroom for the loudest instruments like the Tamtam has to be guaranteed, which makes the overall loudness quite soft as soon as you don't use those loud instruments. Simply raise the output volume of your mix, then, or bring up all individual players by the same amount.

... I'm not a fan of the "early reflection plus reverb tail"-approach to mixing and don't use it myself, so someone else will hopefully chime in with helpful information.

Kind regards & good night,

Hello Dietz,

But doesn't panning width (or stereo width) play a role in the "natural volume" too? Or are we assuming that everything is panned dead center at the same width?

I was working with strings the other day and I noticed that my 1st violins were extremely louder than usual.  After some investigation I realized that some how the violins had been power panned into a 10 or 15% sliver width to the left.  After a correction, the volume returned to normal.

So it's kind of like putting your finger over the end of a water hose?  or is something else going on? 

[Francesco Pirrone]

Hi Markus,

i am pleased to read that you are refining your template. I would like to take this opportunity to say that your latest uploads in the Composition section of this Forum are very good.

In my opinion, it is helpful to have presets as a starting point, it helps to compose with ease. Additionally, there is no absolute reference for instrument volumes in a MIDI template: once you get to the mixing stage you might wish to make significant changes to individual instrument volumes, even if your template was very good.

I would suggest that you may use a previous piece as a template, rather than attempting to build the perfect one, with the awareness that you are likely to change volume, panning and reverb settings once you start mixing.

I sincerely hope it helps. 😊

Best regards

Francesco

[Dietz]

@jasensmith said:

[...]

But doesn't panning width (or stereo width) play a role in the "natural volume" too? Or are we assuming that everything is panned dead center at the same width? 

[...]

Welcome to the world of mixing, Jasen. 😉 You know, the only rule is: There are no rules. It's all about basic physics and acoustics, personal taste - and solutions that are fitting nicely in one context, while they may wreak havoc in another.

You're right that dealing with stereo files has its own intricacies. It depends on their actual stereo-width how they will react to any change of their width (i.e. the decorrellation of left and right channel .... think "Apassionata Violins" opposed to "Solo Cornet") and on the so-called pan-law assigned to the panning device.

"Natural Volume" consists of values derived from actual measurements, but fine-tuned by ear. This is something Herb Tucmandl, VSL's chief and founder, does all by himself, and I assume that he uses the un-panned original recordings to determine meaningful relations between individual instruments. Everything else would be a moving target.

Kind regards,

[Dietz]

PS: -> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panning_(audio)

-> https://film-mixing.com/2015/08/22/understanding-stereo-and-surround-pan-laws-in-pro-tools-and-dolby-atmos/

[jasensmith]

@Dietz said:

PS: -> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panning_(audio)

-> https://film-mixing.com/2015/08/22/understanding-stereo-and-surround-pan-laws-in-pro-tools-and-dolby-atmos/

The second article is eye opening.  I knew that panning affected volume but I didn't know exactly how many variables come into play in the overall mix.  Thanks for posting Dietz.

[jasensmith]

@jasensmith said:

[...]

But doesn't panning width (or stereo width) play a role in the "natural volume" too? Or are we assuming that everything is panned dead center at the same width? 

[...]

Welcome to the world of mixing, Jasen. 😉 You know, the only rule is: There are no rules. It's all about basic physics and acoustics, personal taste - and solutions that are fitting nicely in one conetxt, while they may wreak havoc in another.

You're right that dealing with stereo files has its own intricacies. It depends on their actual stereo-width how they will react to any change of their width (i.e. the decorrellation of left and right channel .... think "Apassionata Violins" opposed to "Solo Cornet") and on the so-called pan-law assigned to the panning device.

"Natural Volume" consists of values derived from actual measurements, but fine-tuned by ear. This is something Herb Tucmandl, VSL's chief and founder, does all by himself, and I assume that he uses the un-panned original recordings to determine meaningful relations between individual instruments. Everything else would be a moving target.

Kind regards,

Thank you Dietz but, believe me, I've already had my baptism of fire with "the world of mixing" quite a while ago.  More like several baptisms😤  I just mentioned the panning angle for the benefit Markus' because it wasn't mentioned before as a possible culprit to his problem.

On second thought, I wouldn't describe it as a "world of mixing."  to me it's more like the journey of mixing because each mixing project seems like another adventure.  

[Dietz]

@jasensmith said:

[...]

Thank you Dietz but, believe me, I've already had my baptism of fire with "the world of mixing" quite a while ago.  More like several baptisms😤 

[...]

You know that I was just cracking a joke, Jasen. Hope you didn't take it personal. 🍸

[mw design]

Ofcourse the Mixing Process is challenging, I dont think that the Top Level Artists have a different Point of View to this. There are not only Mastering Engeneers but also Mixing Engeneers, but anyway then the Learning Curve would be at Zero. I was not aware of those Pan Law. The second Link looks like a very in Depth Process. Jasen hit the Ponit when saying every Project seems to be a new Adventure.

I see this clearly right now, have made a short Excerpt on the Independence Soundtrack, and I had to mixing differently and also used a different Reverbsettings.

[jasensmith]

@jasensmith said:

[...]

Thank you Dietz but, believe me, I've already had my baptism of fire with "the world of mixing" quite a while ago.  More like several baptisms😤 

[...]

You know that I was just cracking a joke, Jasen. Hope you didn't take it personal. 🍸

Oh no, of course not Dietz😉

I think there's been an unfortunate misunderstanding here😳 

I wasn't directing the little angry face emoticon 😤 towards you, I was just using it to describe my constant frustrations with mixing and mastering over the years.  Just when I think I got "mixing" all figured out, another project comes along that takes everything I've learned in the past and throws it all out the window because the new project introduces diferent variables and parameters.

I think part of the problem is I work in several different genres of music and, as you know, each one has its own set of priorities and challanges that have to be satisfied.  So, to me anyway, this is more of a journey.

And I do apologize for the misunderstanding.  No hard feelings at all.