why do the solo strings demos sound much better than what I get in Sibelius?

[lunar_28664]

Was listening again to the demos of the full solo strings pakage and in for instance the Schubert and Beethoven renderings, I'm astounded at the quality. Having used the SE now for a decade, I am more tempted than ever with the current offer to upgrade to the Solo strings 1. But I really have a couple of questions/concerns about use in Sibelius (7.1).

For instance when playing back my string quartets with the Special Edition including the added articulations, I find that although the sound is often beautiful and probably better than anything else on the market, I don't feel I am listening to a musical performance. This is particularly in faster music which often lacks clarity. I have tried all the available articulations but quite often nothing actually really works. The real question is then -- with VSL do you really need to play in real time or spend a lot of time later in Cubase or other DAW to shape the music as the demos show what's really possible? Or is there a night and day difference between the full solo strings version and the SE. I see little in the way of demos for the SE solo strings so have no real way of comparing directly?

I find it interesting to compare the results of Wallander's NotePerformer in Sibelius to my VSL SE. Although of course individual instruments have much more character in VSL with the far greater sample depth, a conventional classic/romantic orchestral score actually sounds more like a real orchestra with Wallander, presumably because of the read-ahead technology (which bring its own issues of course). This is not yet the case for solo strings becuase of the horrible vibrato at slow tempi but that will be fixed in time.

To sum up, 1. is the full VSL Solo Strings package able to produce much better results than my SE? 2. Is VSL as a whole primarily designed for live playback or being processed in a DAW, rather than in notation software? I have read a number of posts here and elsewhere for optimising playback in Sibelius (including obviously Andreas Olszewski's useful guides) but still feel there's something missing and am reluctant to invest further unless I've got a good chance of achieveing something like the results in the demos without spending as much time post-processing as actually writing music!

David

[andi]

Hello David!

The shaping and finetuning is an integral part of creating good playbacks. If you don't want to spend time for that process, the Solo Strings collection will not be much of a benefit in comparison to the Special Edition Solo Strings (maybe a little bit).

It's possible to finetune the playback in Sibelius with help of the Inspector and by giving commands for articulation changes as described in the "Optimizing Sibelius Playback" manual. If you make use of them, you can get better results with the Solo Strings collection than with the SE Solo Strings, because you have more articulations and samples at your hand.

I also want to mention that most users find it easier to finetune playback with MIDI editors in DAWs. These programs offer more professional mixers in addition. Most of our demos are made with DAW software.

Best regards,
Andi

[lunar_28664]

Hi Andi,

Thanks for your reply. Naturally I already make use of what Sibelius supplies in the Inspector and the various articulations in the extended set and after one or two initial teething problems a few years ago (which you and others kindly helped with), have got everything to work about as well as it can in Sibelius, I feel.

Perhaps I should put the question another way --are there any string quartet demos available using only the Special Edition which you would regard as getting the best out of the software? If that is the case, I'd be very grateful if you could indicate where they are to be found. Just to give one example from Beethoven in your music section -- the demo of op.59 no 3 is virtually indestinguishable from a real quartet whereas the op 132 sounds no better (in fact even worse if anything) than what I can do using Sibelius alone.  Why is there such a dramatic difference?

best wishes, David

[andi]

Hi David!

I'm sorry to say that we don't have an audio demo that focuses on the Special Edition Solo Strings.

Some demos will always sound better than others. This can have different reasons. Here are some that come to my mind.
- Libraries used
- Level of experience and dedication of the programmer
- Level of experience of the mixer (audio engineer)
- Level of experience of the listener
- Some instruments and phrasings are more difficult to program than others.
- Solo spots are always more difficult than ensemble parts.

Best,
Andi

[lunar_28664]

Hi Andi -- fair enough points. I know there's no simple answer to my questions! What would probably help me decide for myself is if it were possible to download Solo Strings 1 as a demo. In fact just the violins alone would be enough to test if I could significantly improve on what I have at the moment. I know you do software demo licenses and demos on the Full Libraries if you already have the Standard library. Is there a way to get a demo license on the Standard Library (or simply the solo violin alone would be enough and save me a huge download)

many thanks, David

[andi]

Hello David!

You can test drive all of our libraries with an audition credit.
http://www.vsl.co.at/en/Instruments/Audition_Credit

Please note that it's not possible to integrate the Solo Strings in your Sibelius arrangement this way though.

Best,
Andi

[lunar_28664]

Hello Andi,

your Audition Credit is a great idea (though I don't see why you should have to pay for it!?) but isn't much use to me unfortunately as my issue is not the quality of the sounds and articulations themselves which are surely the best on the market, but the ability to make for a musical rendering at an ensemble level. I assume the Audition Credit only allows you to play with instruments one at a time and there is no chance to actually record several together? I notice also that the player uses the Special Edition Instruments, most of which I have already.

David

[andi]

Hello David!

With the audition credit you can play (and record) all instruments that we have released, not only the Special Edition.

With help of virtual MIDI ports, you can also trigger the player from your DAW or notation program. How to do that exactly is explained in the audition player manual.
http://www.vsl.co.at/en/MyVSL

However it's not possible to use the VI presets for Sibelius with the audition player.

Best,
Andi

[Beat Kaufmann]

Hi David

Here is a fedback from my side which trys to give answers to your titled question. Keep in mind that notation prorgams do what they are programmed for. Take for example the score of the Violin Concert BWV_1041 and let the program play those notations. It never will sound as you are used too. The very first reason is, that the program not will take into account that it should play in "Baroque Style" which is a matter of "short & long", "heavy & light" and more.

OK, you could set those things with signs within the notation but nobody is used then to read such notations. For musical results you also should know that one should choose the right amples not bei their names but by their sounds. So I often use a long "diminuendo" instead of a sustain because the diminuendo starts with a nice swell in its first part which is often better than a flat sustain sound. In a Daw you can do all those things better and often with a better resolution so that it can lead to such results: BWV_1041_Violin_Concert.mp3

When I say "in a better resolution". Whatch please this short video at youtube about staccatos. How would you program all these small different settings for the volume parameter with a score program?

So be happy to have a meaning how your music could sound with your sibelius.

But if you want musically results as well you probably need to do this with a DAW and ideally of course with full libraries for having a lot of possible articulations handy.

When you ask "Why do the solo strings demos sound much better than what I get in Sibelius?"... what means better? So it also could be that the final result sounds different because of a better mastering...

Best

Beat

[lunar_28664]

Hi Beat,

Thanks for your observations on this issue. Originally I was really just asking whether the full solo strings would lead to a clearly better overall result and I'm still not sure on this one. Obviously, because VSL, like other sample libraries, only has very limited musical intelligence built in, it does look you need to effectively programme virtually every other note. Even if you do get one instrument to sound musical then the really hard part is getting an ensemble to sound just that. Of course the mastering plays some role but there are limits! When I say "sounds better", I am referring simply to "sounds more like real musicians playing"

Everything would be so much simpler if software could analyse in real time what is going on so that things which are glaringly obvious to a semi-literate musician who actually reads the score would be automatically incorporated in playback leaving the composer to deal only with the subtlelties and refinements.  I mentioned NotePerformer as this programme is making at attempt in this direction though there is still much work to do and the individual samples are of course not up to the standards of VSL.

best wishes, David

[Beat Kaufmann]

@lunar_28664 said:

...it does look you need to effectively programme virtually every other note...

Dear David

This is unfortunately the truth. Within a large ensemble you probably can simplify the programming within the sections a bit but not when they ae playing important melodies. It seems to me that strings always are more delicate than winds... Solo Strings and String Quartets are the most difficult instruments - could be that I am saying this because I'm able to play the real violin myself as well...

Making music with samples is an art so to say. It needs a lot of experience skills an it is unfortunately a matter of time even if you are a well versed user (artist).

Please listen to these two different produced examples (No 34.). One is just played as it is written and with the other example I tried to make music... I wrote all the differences in a table for comparing the two examples.

Originally I was really just asking whether the full solo strings would lead to a clearly better overall result and I'm still not sure on this one...

The answer is "Yes" but also with a lot more of needed time in the mean time. Sorry for these bad news.

Beat

[lunar_28664]

your example 34 really is an eye-opener! I can't imagine it would take more than an hour to write a single line such as this so we're talking for the sake of argument 3 1/2 times as much time to post-process as to compose. That sort of ratio doesn't make any sense to me and indeed, I'm not even looking for that level of attention, merely something which sounds somewhat like music.

Solo string ensemble  tend to be one of the greatest challenges for sample libraries and I am very grateful at least that my string quartets sound immeasureably more like music than they did a decade or so ago before I had access to VSL. And when I consider that the majority of what I hear on the internet sounds considerably worse than my own time-constrained efforts, perhaps I should just leave things as they are. Actually no -- I would be grateful for just one more bit of advice. Using cross-fading with string quartets --any particular tips? I do find activating this makes for a more spontaneous and lively performance though, as the sound is completely different from when it's not activated, there made well be optimal settings I've yet to find. Speaking here of the Special Edition Plus only for clarity.

thanks again for your help,

David

[Beat Kaufmann]

@lunar_28664 said:

... I would be grateful for just one more bit of advice. Using cross-fading with string quartets --any particular tips? I do find activating this makes for a more spontaneous and lively performance though, as the sound is completely different from when it's not activated, there made well be optimal settings I've yet to find....

David

Hope you mean Crossfade and not Velocity-X-Fade

The Velocity X-Fade - function is the possibilty of choosing the volume of a tone by a curve you draw in a DAW. Have a look here (24A) - 24C)):

The Crossfade -  function makes it possible to blend between two articulations. Let us say youstart with a sfz and blend then (with a midi-controller as well) the tone into the sound of a sustain articulation. Or from a Crescendo into a sustain...

Both of these fading-possibilities do have often a problem in connection with solo instruments...

The Velocity-X-Fade: Fading between different layers can lead to a sort of phasing effects because the phases of the two layers are not syncronized. So when it comes to blend from the one into the other layer the sound of the violin got a sort of "CHORUS-Effect". Could be that you mean this sound when the value just is the right for such a crossing point.

The Crossfade: Same matter here. If the blending stops between the two different articulations you also can have such a chorused sound because of different phases as well of course.

You may ask now: Why only with solo instruments?. Ensembles already do have a sort of chorused sound. That is the reason why we don't realize those "crossing points".

 

Finally, I don't know how you can draw such curves within your score program for controlling the two crossing faders. In any case it is a matter for fiddling with articulations and volumes even "a step deeper in the cake" than the things I showed you in my thread above. I believe you will not really like it... 😉

Beat

[Paul McGraw]

This series of messages was very, very helpful. I also use Sibelius, and while I am thrilled that we have NotePerformer, which is far better than any previous playback from a notation program, I still yearn for better mock-ups. So I have started purchasing Vienna products, I have purchased the full versions of Orchestral Strings, Woodwinds I and Brass I. I also purchased Cubase.

So far I have been very frustrated with trying to use these products with Cubase. I struggle to write music that I feel is good enough to fullfill my hopes, and really don't want to then struggle to learn to use Cubase and the VSL instruments.

But I can see no other alternative.

What is needed is a very elementary, step by step approach to learning to use Cubase and VI instruments. Perhaps there is something like this avaialable now? So far I have only found tutorials or videos that cover one or two pieces of the puzzle, but do not put it all together in a step by step approach.

[Acclarion]

Some of the reasons I suspect, you will never find a true, elementary, step-by-step approach are as follows:

1)  the sheer level of complexity of creating/producing music using virtual instruments, notation programs, and daws, along with the infinite variety/combination of tools an individual will use, make it difficult to create an organized tutorial from beginning to end that would be relevant to a large number of users.

2)  a lot of the learning happens from using/making mistakes and creating "building blocks of information" so that over time, you figure out what to do more efficiently/effectively; avoiding these steps may seem desirable, but ultimately the greatest learning happens from experiencing the process, mistakes and all.

3)  those users with great expertise are likely busy creating music and lack the time/desire to go back and create a helpful learning guide for those just starting out on their journey.  Further to this, experts often lack the educational background to break down or chunk information in such a way as to effectively teach it to newbies.  They may make suppositions or take for granted what they believe is common knowledge, leaving important steps out of the process (this has often happened with tutorials I've viewed, in which the instructor left out "in between" steps because they are so familiar with doing something that they assumed everyone would know "where to click" for example).  At the other end, some tutorials are wayyy to methodical and slow paced, repeating ad naseum, the same information to the point where you feel like they're speaking to five year olds.

4)  this one is a reality that nobody outright admits, but is a fact (in my opinion);  composers are in a highly competitive field and will not divulge the knowledge necessary to compete with them.  It would be like KFC telling you their 11 herbs and spices.  Furthermore, many artists are insecure both with their skills and their process, and don't want to subject their ideas to criticism or scrutiny by those that might attack the way they do things as being inferior.

5)  the financial incentive just isn't there to develop such a methodical guide, in a world where people will "take, take, take" and maybe at most give you a "thanks for the info" on a forum like this.  When you start charging, you realize that only a fraction of people that would welcome these materials, will actually pay for them.

Just my two cents,

Dave

www.soundcloud.com/carovillano <---like all of us writing music, I would sincerely appreciate you taking a few moments to listen to a track or two and leaving feedback!

[Paul McGraw]

Wow Dave, that was certainly very thorough. And I am afraid you are probably 100% correct. Perhaps for those who are willing to pay, such as myself, perhaps some kind of private lessons would be appropriate. After all, we pay teachers to help us master the violin, or piano, or any other instrument. Why not a private teacher for VSL virtual instruments?

[Beat Kaufmann]

@Paul McGraw said:

What is needed is a very elementary, step by step approach to learning to use Cubase and VI instruments. Perhaps there is something like this avaialable now? So far I have only found tutorials or videos that cover one or two pieces of the puzzle, but do not put it all together in a step by step approach.

Hi Paul

Here it is - for free:

A) How to integrate VI in Cubase. (select no. 25.) You also will be able to download the project you see with the image-steps...

B) About using always the same "organisation" of inserting articulations within the Vienna Instrument.... creating BASIC PRESETS (as an idea)

C) About the use of the Vienna Instrument within Cubas >>> a first simple example.

------------------------------------------------

Important:

1. Go from A) through B) to C) 

2. C0 within the Vienna Instrument is in Cubase C-1 / C~0 within VI is C-2 within Cubase. This is important to know in connection with "selecting" matrices of a VI via Midi-Track within Cubase

3. Please forget the Vienna Ensemble for the very first steps within Cubase. Cubase is a host for VIs as well and it can do all the things you need for the first steps. Once, when you are familiar with the use of VI then it will be easy to understand why you could need a further host (VE) within a host (Cubase)...

Now I wish you a lot of sucess, my dear. I'm keen to hear about your results...

All the best

Beat

[Paul McGraw]

Thanks Beat. I found your website and will give this a try. I will definately let you know how I do with this.

[thomamd]

I have refrained from commenting on this thread, but perhaps I now I will share my experiences.  As a Sibelius user, I have spent years off and on trying to come up with performances of the string quartets I was writing using the Special Edition.  I did not consider my audio files to my liking.  I did not see the point of spending money on Solo Strings I when I did not like what I had created using the SE and some of the files were based on SE quality samples.  I came into some unexpected money and with reservations I purchased SS I Full.

The first thing I noticed was the all my previous Sib files were sounding better.  While watching VE, I noticed that the soundset was choosing a greater number of samples because it had more from which to choose.  Combined with VE (which uses  your VI, I believe) and maxing out the humanizing features in VE, I was able to produce performances that it not make me cringe. Add to that MIR and I not need to jump for the "Next" button on my iPod when my pieces came up in public.

Should you buy SS I?  That would be, in my humble opinion, whether you can afford it.  I do not believe that my current pieces have any more commerical value that my SE versions.  A person wanting to hear a string quartet will prefer the real thing.  While I do like what I am able to do now, none of the results have made any financial gain.  The string players liking my music has not increased just because I used SS and not SE.  Some of my orchestral music has been performed by real orchestras.  In every case,  the conductors were uninterested in my mp3s and have said that they will "hear" my composition by looking at the score.

My SS I string quartets can be heard here, but I warn you, I am no Beethoven!

www.markthomas.ca/virtual-string-quartets

[Paul McGraw]

thomand,

I went to your website and enjoyed listening to several of your works. I listened to some of the string quartets and also to some of the orchestral pieces.

Do you always work in Sibelius for both you quartets and orchestral pieces? Never a DAW? Do you think you could achieve better results with a DAW?

Thanks, Paul McGraw