Violin: issues with slur transitions, attack times, gaps between notes

[Free Trial]

I'm having three specific issues with VSL (Chamber Strings I - Standard) violin playback in Sibelius 7:

1. Transitions from non-slurred notes to slurred notes: The non-slurred note gets louder as it cross-fades into the slurred note. This also occurs in some transitions between slurred notes. The result sounds like a grace note. There appears to be no way to set the cross-fade intensity for individual notes or even individual cells.

2. Attack times are variant between notes in the same channel and cell. This means that the resulting rhythms are distorted. In passages with fast sixteenth notes, for example, this is especially problematic because some of the notes sound like dotted sixteenth notes and others like thirty-second notes.

3. The gaps between notes are at times too large. This is a result of attack times being too high (despite being at the lowest possible setting -- 0 ms). This can partially be fixed by lowering the "expression velocity" of the instrument, but there appears to be no way to change this for individual notes or even individual cells.

Each of these issues contributes to an entirely unsatisfactory playback. The original Sibelius libraries seem to outperform VSL in each of these respects, which makes no sense.

Any help is appreciated!

[andi]

Hello Free Trial!

Here are some hints how you can optimize the playback.

1. If you get a grace note like sound at a transition, you might want to shorten the preceding note as explained in the "Optimizing Sibelius Playback" manual, page 19. In general I recommend working with the Sibelius Inspector in order to get the best out of the playback.

2. This can have different reasons. First I would check, if it helps setting the Sibelius playback performance settings to "meccanico". Anyway it's true that the attack times of the staccato repetitions are not equal. To get the rhythm straighter, you can trigger the short notes/staccato (non repetition) patch in one of the custom cells. How to do that is explained in the "Optimizing Sibelius Playback" manual, page 12.

3. I guess you are talking about the sustain patch here, right? Please note that this patch includes single notes which will not work that good for phrases in most cases. A slow attack is only natural for single (or starting) notes in string groups. You might want to try legato or for shorter notes detache instead.

Best regards,
Andi

[Free Trial]

Hi, Andi!

Thanks for your reply, but it's still not working:

1. Shortening the notes does not solve the problem; it just makes it worse, because the transition from quiet to loud at the end of each note is more noticeable. Changing the live start position doesn't work either.

2. In my piece, none of the fast sixteenth notes are repetitions (each note is different from the previous one).

3. If I used legato throughout the whole piece, there would be no audible difference between the slurred parts and the non-slurred parts. Traditionally, phrases without slurs are supposed to be played with multiple bow strokes, but still relatively smoothly. This produces a much different sound than slurred passages. Are you saying that a 300-euro sound library can't capture this difference?

I'm very disappointed in my purchase. Please help!

[GoranTch]

Just one general remark: VSL libraries are first and foremost music production tools, and they require a proper music production environment (that is, first and foremost a professional host sequencer and mixer like f.e. Cubase or Digital Performer) to really show their true colors. Judging them on the basis of playback in a notation software is a bit like testing a Lamborghini by driving to work through a neighbourhood with 30 km/h speed limit... just saying ;-)

[andi]

1. It's hard to give precise instructions without seeing your example.

2. For staccato sixteenth notes, the repetitions will be triggered automatically. That's why I suggested trying the normal staccato articulation in one of the custom cells.

3. Again it's hard to give precise instructions without seeing your example or knowing exactly what you want. You have different tools to get what you want at your hand.
- Change note lengths, velocities and start positions with the Sibelius Inspector.
- Try different articulations. For example sfz, perf-rep_leg and detache have stronger attacks than sustain.
- Try to raise the Advanced/Envelope/Rel slider for the sustain articulation. This will generate smoother transitions.
- You could also try to raise the general Release fader. It can be controlled with MIDI CC23.
Sibelius commands for controlling CC23 are as follows:
~C23,63 for default value
~C23,80 for longer release time (value 80 is just an example here).

I don't see a reason to be disappointed. You have a powerful tool at hands. Just don't expect everything to sound great automatically. You will have to shape the playback to get what you want.

[Free Trial]

Hi, Andi!

Thanks for sticking with me. I am going to try to attach three files to this post in a zip file:

1) A Sibelius 7.13 file with examples of the issues I'm describing
2) A PDF of the Sibelius score
3) An MP3 audio of the Sibelius file

I hope these files help you to resolve my issues!

VSL Demo.zip-1696285776700-b552c.zip

[andi]

I'm not at the office today and will take a look at your example tomorrow. In the meantime you could try out my suggestions.

Best,
Andi

[andi]

Hi Free Trial!

Here are a few suggestions of what you can do.
Bar 1: Use legato or increase the Release-Time as suggested earlier.
Bars 2, 5 and 6: Sounds ok by me, especially if you add reverb. Anyway, with Vienna Instruments Pro it's possible to shorten the transition time for legato with the options Advanced/Start Offset, Advanced Start Offset Attack and Start. You can get a free demo license of VI Pro here:
http://www.vsl.co.at/en/Vienna_Software_Package/Vienna_Instruments_PRO

Bars 8 and 9: You didn't add staccato marks. So the default articulation (sustain) gets played. If you want to hear staccato, add staccato marks.

Best regards,
Andi

[Free Trial]

Hi, Andi!

Thanks for your reply. To clarify my previous post:

Bar 1: This bar was in response to suggestions that I should not use legato. I want to use legato for that passage. The point of bar 1 was to explain why I don't want to use sustain or detache.

Bars 2, 5, 6: The length of the transition doesn't seem to be the issue. The issue is that in a transition between two notes, the first note gets louder. This sounds like the opposite of how cross-fade normally works, where the first note gets softer and the second note gets louder. Compare it to a slideshow of pictures. When one picture fades into the next, the first picture does not become clearer during the transition -- it becomes less clear.

Now, if I bought the Pro version and "shortened the transition time for legato" to zero, that might get rid of the problem by removing the cross-fade entirely. However, it seems like I could replicate that with the Standard version just by setting the cross-fade intensity to zero. Furthermore, I want a cross-fade between notes; I just don't want the first note to get louder during that cross-fade.

I realize that I'm somewhat speculating here, but I need to make sure that you understand my problem before I spend 100 euros on Pro in an attempt to fix it.

Bars 8 and 9: I don't want to hear staccato. I mentioned staccato because you suggested that "for staccato sixteenth notes, the repetitions will be triggered automatically". I was pointing out that the sixteenth notes were not being played staccato, so the repetitions were not being triggered automatically.

My issue is that bars 8-9 sound like how bars 10-11 would be played: syncopated, with uneven rhythms. I don't want this. I want each note to sound like a sixteenth note. The fact that repetitions sometimes have uneven rhythms should not come into play, because there are no repetitions in this passage, whether automatically triggered or otherwise.

So, to clarify, here are my questions:

1. How do I make bar 2 not sound like bar 3?

2. How do I make bars 8-9 not sound like bars 10-11?

[andi]

1. Try Vienna Instruments Pro. The demo license is for free. So you can decide after trying it, if you want to purchase it. The Start offset function I have mentioned is explained in the VI PRO manual on page 47. You will also have to raise the Start fader under Advanced/Perform to hear the difference.
http://www.vsl.co.at/en/MyVSL

2. Try staccato marks, detache and legato or use one of the custom cells with staccato loaded.

[Free Trial]

Hi, Andi!

Re: 1. I installed the Vienna Instruments Pro 2 demo and downloaded the user's manual. The Start Offset functions work fine. I tried many combinations of settings, including Start Offset Mode, Start Offset, Start Offset Attack, Release Mode, and they all work as expected.

But they do not solve my problem, which does not concern how the notes start, but how they end. Each note gets louder as it cross-fades into the next one. Bar 2 sounds like bar 3. So does bar 1 if it's played legato. I don't want this. I want each note to get softer as it cross-fades into the next one. That's how cross-fade should work.

Re: 2. I don't want the passage to be played staccato, detache or legato. I want the default articulation (sustain), which is what I'm getting. That's all fine. I'm not having any trouble producing staccato either, when I want it. My problem has nothing to do with staccato. My problem is that the rhythms in bars 8-9 are distorted, no matter which articulation(s) are played.

Please let me know if you have any other possible suggestions, especially if they involve VI Pro (while my demo license is still valid!).

[andi]

Re 1. You could soften the transition by using Start Offset Mode "Leg" with only a short Start Offset (but higher than 0) and a longer Start Offset Attack.

Re 2. The sustain articulation isn't ment for short notes. It has a soft attack and doesn't work with concise ryhtmic phrases. Other articulations will work better. I have tried detache with your example and think it works well.

[Free Trial]

Re 2. Detache with a live duration of 96 works well enough for me. I'll still have to adjust the live start positions and velocities in the Sibelius inspector, but it's better than the sustain. Problem solved! Thanks for your help on this!

Re 1. I tried three configurations: Start Offset Attack 10ms, 40ms and 100ms, with Start Offset 10ms and Start Offset Mode Leg. None of those configurations solved the problem. The rhythm still sounds like grace notes. (I did remember to raise the Start fader, by the way.) Any sugggestions for what to try next?

[andi]

Re 2. Good.
Re 1. Add reverb. Other than that I've got no more suggestions.