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  • Interesting discussion.  The art and science division is not so hard and fast as implied here.  There’s a blend of knowledge useful to the artist and scientist drawn from acoustics, psychoacoustics and perception at work that are all useful in guiding the actions and decisions of the composer/orchestrator.  There’s always an interaction at work between the objective, measurable aspects of sound and their subjective, perceptual outcomes.  For pretty much every aspect of what we do this division between measurement and perception exists and that’s where science and art blend — a useful blend to keep in mind, and pretty powerful too when you start to leverage that interaction in the making of well-crafted art, which is anything but "anything goes".

     

    From my own experience in both audio engineering, music production and composition, I can add a further ‘rationalization’ of how Natural Volume works in relation to ensemble balance.  When the sound of an instrument is captured in recording, the general goal is to record it at the highest level possible without distortion.  This gives us the best quality sample with the highest dynamic range and lowest signal to noise ratio.  But, as a consequence, quiet instruments, when played back at full level, will sound unnaturally loud in comparison to loud instruments, for which the recording level has to be lowered so as not to overload the recording system.  This reveals the logic behind the ‘Natural Volume’ system.  If you take a look at the table of Natural Volumes for the VSL instruments Dietz referred to, you can see that the quieter the instrument or ensemble is, the more reduction in its level is applied as ‘Natural Volume’.  Instruments in the violin family are among the quietest in the orchestra, which is one of the reasons one need so many in a section to strike the desired balance in an orchestra in which almost every other instrument is significantly louder.  To achieve a doubling of perceived loudness you need to increase the level by about 6 dB.  Simply doubling the number of instruments won’t do the trick because adding t wo sounds of the same intensity only results in a 3 dB increase in level.  So there’s a counterintuitive relation at work here between the number of instruments and their perceived loudness that also need to be taken into account.  Art informs science.

     

    The timpani is, indeed, an instrument with a huge dynamic range and can generate among the loudest sounds in the orchestra when played hard.  Anything with that size of vibrating diaphram and corresponding resonator is gonna be loud!  This is fundamental orchestration technique.  Things get complicated in the age of electronic recording and mixing.  The technical aspects of electronic/digital audio production can cause these real-world details to be lost.  Before the age of audio production the two basic controls over balance were the interaction of the acoustics of the concert hall and the group of players under the direction of a conductor.  Now, in the age of audio production, if you want the timpani to be present at lower levels a judicious application of EQ can help bring it out without resorting to playing it louder and overwhelming the ensemble of quieter instruments.  This may not necessarily be ‘Natural’ according to the laws of acoustics that determine the sound an instrument in a particular hall, but may sound more ‘Natural’ to the ear.  Where does one draw the line?  

     

    In addition, players will naturally modulate the intensity of their playing based on the acoustics of the room they play in.  If you recall, all the VSL samples have been recorded in one and the same neutral acoustic environment.  That’s not the acoustic environment you’re composing, arranging, and orchestrating for.  We put our samples in one of several virtual spaces based on either the venues provided by MIR or some other spaces based on impulse response recordings, or even algorithmic simulations of resonant spaces.  The loudness of each and every instrument is altered by the resonant characteristics of the particular space it’s being sounded in.  They *will* sound different in relation to each other in different spaces depending on the relation between the frequency content of each instrument and the resonances specific to the space they’re sounded in.  In this sense Natural Volume really is only a starting place, based on the ‘ideal’ acoustic of the silent stage, an acoustic space that’s been treated to minimize such resonances and their ability to alter the overall presence of an instrument.

     

    Two cents worth of the art of science, or is that the science of art? 

     

    Best,

     

     

    Kenneth.


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    @Another User said:

    ... This may not necessarily be ‘Natural’ according to the laws of acoustics that determine the sound an instrument in a particular hall, but may sound more ‘Natural’ to the ear.  Where does one draw the line?

    In this thread, the topic draws the line by saying: This thread is about objective levels and has absolutely nothing to do with how those levels are percevied by any human's ear. Pretend an asteroid killed all the humans, for this thread. We're just talking about sound waves in a hypothetical world with no humans.

    As people continue to misunderstand this topic, I'll continue to clarify that it's unrelated to human perception. It's just about numbers in DAW's and pressure-waves moving through air, not about humans. If I could make that clear using fewer words, I would.


  • Here is a way to respectfully make an appropriate place for talking about art, human-perception, or anything else that's subjective:

    [img]http://i.imgur.com/YiNvqCp.png[/img]


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    Kenneth,

    Thank you so much for your detailed explanation concerning natural volume. I had some misconceptions about it, and I now have a better grasp about why it's there. I dug my piece where I experienced this issue concerning natural volume and realized it was not a timpani but rather a bass drum. Here are the two snippets (bass drum comes in at 20 seconds).

    NATURAL VOLUME BASS DRUM

    https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/33556625/Music/Sample_Nat_Vol_Bass.mp3

    -8db VOLUME BASS DRUM

    https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/33556625/Music/Sample_Less_Vol_Bass.mp3

    MIR PRO WINDOW

    https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/33556625/Images/wm.jpg

    You will hear the -8db most likely sounds more natural than the Natural volume one. Please note, velocities are 100 for both.

    Maybe this equation needs to be refined, because really, if someone doesn't know what natural volume is, the impression he or she will get is "Oh, let me click this to get a natural sound, natural balance).

    Thanks again for your thorough explanation!

    Cheers,

    -Nektarios


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    @nektarios said:

    ... the impression he or she will get is "Oh, let me click this to get a natural sound, natural balance).

    That impression would be correct, assuming "natural" means the resultant air-pressure waves would be objectively the same as the air-pressure waves generated by a live performance in the real physical world.

    If you confuse -- as Kenneth does -- "natural" to mean "artistically preferable", of course there's no button that can read the minds of your listeners to find what they prefer to hear.


  • You're world of objective robots is not what you think it is.  The world is too complex for such a simplistic, reductionist view of things.  As much as you would like things to be reducible to your vision of machine perception it's just not so.

    Recalling what I said in my closing paragraph, one of your robots would provide you with different data, different measurements, for the same instrument, in each and every virtual venue you place your sound in.  That's acoustics.  And that's the way acoustics impacts in a very objective way on perception.  The two cannot be detached, sorry 'bout that.  Science at is foundation is based on perception, observation, a training of the senses to the subtle differences that make for significance and meaning in the world.  Leonardo da Vinci worked that out for us 500 or so years ago. And every philosopher worthy of the title over the past several thousand years has struggled with the issue of what we know and how we know it.  Read Martin Heidegger on the origins of the work of art, also his thoughts on technology.  Art is a revealing of Truth, as is technology.  The Greeks knew that three thousand years ago.  That's why their word, techne, encompassed art, technology and knowledge.  

    And really, must we descend into childish name-calling?  "Touchy feely" is simply meant as a denigrating statement of the considered language of someone trying to engage, meaningfully in a dialogue on an interesting topic.  I wasn't aware that you were the moderator of this thread.  You simply started it, and it goes where people would like it, reasonably, to go regardless of your wishes.  That's not hijacking, it's called conversation.  Again, sorry for the real world in all its complexity, this time social, impinging on your view.  I'll move on now.

    I appreciate you now understand this.

    Best,

    Kenneth.


  • Playing the bass drum at a velocity of 100 is Forte, and you don't want forte in your example, 

     

    try playing the Bass Drum at a velocity of 60, and leave everything at Natural Volume,

     

    Perhaps you could approach this from a different angle,  leave Natural Volume as it comes, and adjust the dynamics of the instrument (velocity) to achieve the right balance, as that is how it would be in the real world. (assuming your have Vel XF controlled by velocity)


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    @Another User said:

    I appreciate you now understand this.

    I understand that you don't understand what Natural Volume is, and you'd rather give speeches about Art than learn how to operate this computer program you bought.


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    @andyjh said:

    Playing the bass drum at a velocity of 100 is Forte, and you don't want forte in your example, 

     

    try playing the Bass Drum at a velocity of 60, and leave everything at Natural Volume,

     

    Perhaps you could approach this from a different angle,  leave Natural Volume as it comes, and adjust the dynamics of the instrument (velocity) to achieve the right balance, as that is how it would be in the real world. (assuming your have Vel XF controlled by velocity)

    ^ this


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    @andyjh said:

    Playing the bass drum at a velocity of 100 is Forte, and you don't want forte in your example, 

     

    try playing the Bass Drum at a velocity of 60, and leave everything at Natural Volume,

     

    Perhaps you could approach this from a different angle,  leave Natural Volume as it comes, and adjust the dynamics of the instrument (velocity) to achieve the right balance, as that is how it would be in the real world. (assuming your have Vel XF controlled by velocity)

    Indeed, with 60 it's much much better. Thanks!


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    @nektarios said:

    ... the impression he or she will get is "Oh, let me click this to get a natural sound, natural balance).

    That impression would be correct, assuming "natural" means the resultant air-pressure waves would be objectively the same as the air-pressure waves generated by a live performance in the real physical world.

    If you confuse -- as Kenneth does -- "natural" to mean "artistically preferable", of course there's no button that can read the minds of your listeners to find what they prefer to hear.

    What natural volume is to me is this for example: I go to some hall and there is an ensemble there but there are no microphones whatsoever. The sound coming out of this ensemble is natural (irregardles if it's pleasant or not). Like this one: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/33556625/Music/Chamber%20Orchestra%203.m4a

    Just my iPhone recording. There are no mics, just the natural sound of the instruments and hence volume. So I expect that is what natural volume tries to simulate.


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    @nektarios said:

    ... the impression he or she will get is "Oh, let me click this to get a natural sound, natural balance).

    That impression would be correct, assuming "natural" means the resultant air-pressure waves would be objectively the same as the air-pressure waves generated by a live performance in the real physical world.

    If you confuse -- as Kenneth does -- "natural" to mean "artistically preferable", of course there's no button that can read the minds of your listeners to find what they prefer to hear.

    BachRules, I tend to agree with Kenneth in many points. You can't ignore perception. One example that comes to mind is this: Have you ever watched the weather person say: It will be -5 degrees but feel like -17 with the wind. How do they measure the  "it will feel like" part if it can vary from person to person?


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    @nektarios said:

    ... the impression he or she will get is "Oh, let me click this to get a natural sound, natural balance).

    That impression would be correct, assuming "natural" means the resultant air-pressure waves would be objectively the same as the air-pressure waves generated by a live performance in the real physical world.

    If you confuse -- as Kenneth does -- "natural" to mean "artistically preferable", of course there's no button that can read the minds of your listeners to find what they prefer to hear.

    What natural volume is to me is this for example: I go to some hall and there is an ensemble there but there are no microphones whatsoever. The sound coming out of this ensemble is natural (irregardles if it's pleasant or not). Like this one: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/33556625/Music/Chamber%20Orchestra%203.m4a

    Just my iPhone recording. There are no mics, just the natural sound of the instruments and hence volume. So I expect that is what natural volume tries to simulate.

    If you set your volume faders all to the the same level, turn on Natural Volume, and use only velocity (and instrument-positioning in the MIR room) to control loudness, your will get combinations of timbres limited to the combinations which are possible in the real world. This optional limitation is the purpose of Natural Volume. When you want real-world-possible timbre-combinations, allign your faders, turn on Natural Volume, adjust velocity (and instrument-positioning in the MIR room) to countrol loudness, and leave the faders alone.

    When you reduce velocity on your drum to 60, you are taking advantage of Natural Volume. When you alternatively leave velocity at 100 but attenuate by 8 db, you're breaking the don't-touch-your-faders rule and you end up with a combination of timbres which isn't possible in the real world. In the real world, you can tell the drummer to hit the drum less hard. That's like reducing velocity to 60. In the real world, you can't tell the drummer to hit the drum 8 db quieter while maintaining a constant timbre. That's physically impossible in the natural world; that's what you get when you leave velocity at 100 but lower the fader 8db.

    None of this is to say what your listeners want to hear, or how you should do things. Just describing the objective science of the Natural-Volume button.


  • Yeap, I get it now. I wasn't aware of this before. It's just that the loudest velocity sounds a bit too load in the case of the bass drum.

    Thanks!


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    @nektarios said:

    BachRules, I tend to agree with Kenneth in many points. You can't ignore perception. One example that comes to mind is this: Have you ever watched the weather person say: It will be -5 degrees but feel like -17 with the wind. How do they measure the  "it will feel like" part if it can vary from person to person?

    But this thread is about the number that shows up on the thermometer, and that number is unaffected by your perception of the temperature; and so, human perception remains totally irrelevant for the intents and purposes of this thread.

    If you really, really are unable to ignore perception, you will believe that your perception of the temperature will alter the number that shows on your thermometer. That would be egomaniacal, to imagine your perception alters the functioning of thermometers. But hey, we live in a world where authorities imprisoned Galileo for claiming the earth isn't the center of the solar system, after all.

    By bringing human perception into this discussion, the most you can achieve is continued misunderstanding of the Natural-Volume button on your software. Suit yourself. Natural Volume isn't about what you perceive. It's about the objective motion of your speakers and objective waves of pressure passing through the air. How your brain perceives those pressure-waves is none of Natural Volume's business.

    Now I'll leave you and Kenneth to agree that human perception is relevant to the functioning of the Natural Volume button on your software. I concede the election: The MIR Natural-Volume button functions however you and Kenneth decide by consensus. The machine-code compiled inside MIR will alter itself to accomodate your perception.

    I have no more time for this lunacy, as I'd have no more time for egomaniacs believing their perception of the temperature alters the numbers a thermometer displays.


  • I get you and know where you are coming from. The point I was making is that natural volume may need further refinement so that you are not left on having to use your perception and make adjustments. 


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    @nektarios said:

    I get you and know where you are coming from. The point I was making is that natural volume may need further refinement so that you are not left on having to use your perception and make adjustments. 

    Natural Volume simulates a natural orchestra. Composers for real orchestra have to decide which dynamics to assign each note (ppp, fff, or somewhere in between); and true to that model, Natural Volume leaves VSL-composers with the burden of deciding which velocity to assign each note.

    There could be an added layer of technology which assigns dynamics (velocity) automatically, but VSL's Natural Volume was never intended to do that aspect of composition for you.

    I'd buy software to compose my dynamics for me automatically, if I liked the results. But hopefully they'd name it Artistic Dynamics, so as not to confuse it with Natural Volume, which is a science, not an art.


  • I agree, and it would be ideal if natural volume is not just a guide. Personally, I would take it a step further when it comes to EQ as well, but that is for another thread.


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    @BachRules said:

    If you set your volume faders all to the the same level, turn on Natural Volume, and use only velocity (and instrument-positioning in the MIR room) to control loudness, your will get combinations of timbres limited to the combinations which are possible in the real world.

    No, that is not correct, because it ignores the differing dynamic range of instruments. There is probably one dynamic at which this is true, but as I have no idea as to how the Natural Volumes were calculated, I have no idea which dynamic it would be.

    DG


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    @DG said:

    No, that is not correct, because it ignores the differing dynamic range of instruments. There is probably one dynamic at which this is true, but as I have no idea as to how the Natural Volumes were calculated, I have no idea which dynamic it would be.

    DG

     

    I have always assumed that it is based on the maximum level ot the loudest dynamic (maximum SPL of that instrument),  but the huge diversity of dynamic ranges per instrument makes things somewhat more complex, especially when a piece may not be utilising that dynamic range.

    If I ever need to make large changes to what Natural Volume has set,  I can't help feeling that I must be doing something  a little unnatural.