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staccato part of a Trombone patch: TTB 01_basic
That would be patch
/C - Brass patches/56 Tenor trombone/01 SHORT + LONG NOTES/01 TTB_staccato
It does do some odd things. Set velocity high, and the 4 four round-robin samples on note D-sharp-4 vary in timbre dramatically. Notes lower than D-sharp-4 have one timbre, and notes higher than D-sharp-4 have a different timbre, with D-sharp-4 itself alternating timbres.
@pudik said:
1. I completely agree that for good rendition samples have to be tweaked to death. However, that there is no "wickedly expensive" software that adds in the endeavor, just look at Melodyne (sp?) or even more so Altiverb.
Of course - MIR PRO, Ircam SPAT or Altiverb are very expensive. On the other hand, these complex and powerful tools are manufactured with full-time professionals in mind who ideally generate substantial income through their musical work. Those tools are however certainly not the only means to achieve a satisfying ambient sound, IMO. And they certainly don't guarantee outstanding results by default either.
I personally think that the whole reverb topic is sometimes being over-thought and overcomplicated. There are plenty of more affordable and also easier to use plug-ins and software solutions that can still yield satisfactory results. VSL offers MIRx, which obviously lacks the advanced functions of MIR PRO, but on the other hand delivers fairly similar sonic results with minimum effort and at a very affordable price. It's really a no-brainer. There is also the Vienna Suite - although quite expensive, but on the other hand, not unreasonably so considering the extensive array of high quality tools it offers - with wonderful convolution and hybrid reverbs.
Of course there are also some great plug-ins from other manufacturers -EastWest, ValhallaDSP or 2cAudio come to mind, and those products won't exactly break the bank either. Cubase 7.5 even comes with pretty viable convolution and algorhythmic reverbs (REVerence and the new, still somewhat overlooked, but beautiful REVelation) out of the box.
@DG said:
... Regarding using LFO and such devices, VSL produces orchestral sample Collections, not synths, so an LFO vibrato wouldn't be appropriate....
I don't see how LFO vibrato would be so different from any of the other sample-manipulating functions in VI. The Humanize function alters the pitch already, and I don't think of that as inappropriate.
Becuase that is not the ethos of VSL, whether you like it or not.
DG
@pudik said:
You state "Such vibrato cannot be obtained on the scoring stage" Well, just listen to Harry James or Al Hirt or the trumpeter in the "The Good, the Bad and the Ugly".
BTW your post is almost impossible to read, so it might be worth formatting it better which you can do via Profile/Community/Content Editor/Enhanced.
However, what I was going to say was you misunderstood my comment. I was saying that recording samples that can be manipulated in the way SM does is probably not possible with material recorded on a stage, not that people can't play with vibrato on a scoring stage.
DG
@DG said:
... Regarding using LFO and such devices, VSL produces orchestral sample Collections, not synths, so an LFO vibrato wouldn't be appropriate....
I don't see how LFO vibrato would be so different from any of the other sample-manipulating functions in VI. The Humanize function alters the pitch already, and I don't think of that as inappropriate.
Becuase that is not the ethos of VSL....
How do you know that?
Humanize, which lets you modulate the pitch up and down at a low frequency, is part of VSL's ethos, and VSL finds it appropriate. You're entitled to your opinion about what's appropriate, but I'm not sure VSL agrees with you.
@DG said:
The best Brass product I've heard for constructing a fake vibrato is Sample Modeling, but that's recorded in an anechoic chamber and all the dynamics are fake as well. I doubt that this could be achieved using an instrument recorded on a scoring stage.
Here's artificial vibrato applied to non-vibrato samples recorded in a concert hall:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5ZYXb_HdIQhMk1WeXBUVmZKdzg/view?usp=sharing
[url]https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5ZYXb_HdIQhMk1WeXBUVmZKdzg/view?usp=sharing[/url]
Doesn't sound good, but if someone spent more than 60 seconds on it, maybe. I doubt it would present any difficulty for samples recorded in a silent stage.
I personally am not a fan of Sample Modeling or Friedlander's artificial vibrato, but I still think it has potential.
John,
There are certainly some very expensive plugins available, but I don't think many of them would be a particular advantage with VSL. MIRx is better than Altiverb for processing VSL samples. For a conventional style reverb, QL Spaces is amazing -and not too expensive. The rest of the expensive plugins are unnecessary. They might help shape your sound in a particular direction, but they won't improve the quality of it, and they most certainly won't reduce the amount of work you have to do on your samples.
I use a Breath Controller to control the volume of VSL instruments. When the Breath Controller reach 127 it's on max and the sample should be loudest. The patch: 01 TTB_staccato changes dramatically when the volume controller goes from 99 -100. The sound is very edgy and the instrument sounds like it's moved AWAY from the mic - result the sound gets weaker. Result: the Trombone disappears from the mix, when it's supposed to be loudest.
@pudik said:
You state "Such vibrato cannot be obtained on the scoring stage" Well, just listen to Harry James or Al Hirt or the trumpeter in the "The Good, the Bad and the Ugly".
BTW your post is almost impossible to read, so it might be worth formatting it better which you can do via Profile/Community/Content Editor/Enhanced.
However, what I was going to say was you misunderstood my comment. I was saying that recording samples that can be manipulated in the way SM does is probably not possible with material recorded on a stage, not that people can't play with vibrato on a scoring stage.
DG
@pudik said:
You state "Such vibrato cannot be obtained on the scoring stage" Well, just listen to Harry James or Al Hirt or the trumpeter in the "The Good, the Bad and the Ugly".
BTW your post is almost impossible to read, so it might be worth formatting it better which you can do via Profile/Community/Content Editor/Enhanced.
However, what I was going to say was you misunderstood my comment. I was saying that recording samples that can be manipulated in the way SM does is probably not possible with material recorded on a stage, not that people can't play with vibrato on a scoring stage.
DG
@johnstaf said:
John,
There are certainly some very expensive plugins available, but I don't think many of them would be a particular advantage with VSL. MIRx is better than Altiverb for processing VSL samples. For a conventional style reverb, QL Spaces is amazing -and not too expensive. The rest of the expensive plugins are unnecessary. They might help shape your sound in a particular direction, but they won't improve the quality of it, and they most certainly won't reduce the amount of work you have to do on your samples.
Thank you, Johnstaf.
I have more than enough reverb/convolution software. What I am looking for is vibrato. The only libraries I have that react to CC17+Aftertouch are Garritan's Personal Orchestra and JABB. The effect of CC17+Aftertouch is quite good. More over, this combination is prone to automation, so even though sample quality is not stellar, it is enhanced tremendously.
I think that this method should be offered as a choice in the top of the line libraries such as VSL. I mean by this, the possibility that the composer have the coice of using it or not. This won't take away from the reputation of any manufacturer.
In your experience, does MIRx have vibrato automation?
Thanks again, John.
@pudik said:
1. I completely agree that for good rendition samples have to be tweaked to death. However, that there is no "wickedly expensive" software that adds in the endeavor, just look at Melodyne (sp?) or even more so Altiverb.
Of course - MIR PRO, Ircam SPAT or Altiverb are very expensive. On the other hand, these complex and powerful tools are manufactured with full-time professionals in mind who ideally generate substantial income through their musical work. Those tools are however certainly not the only means to achieve a satisfying ambient sound, IMO. And they certainly don't guarantee outstanding results by default either.
I personally think that the whole reverb topic is sometimes being over-thought and overcomplicated. There are plenty of more affordable and also easier to use plug-ins and software solutions that can still yield satisfactory results. VSL offers MIRx, which obviously lacks the advanced functions of MIR PRO, but on the other hand delivers fairly similar sonic results with minimum effort and at a very affordable price. It's really a no-brainer. There is also the Vienna Suite - although quite expensive, but on the other hand, not unreasonably so considering the extensive array of high quality tools it offers - with wonderful convolution and hybrid reverbs.
Of course there are also some great plug-ins from other manufacturers -EastWest, ValhallaDSP or 2cAudio come to mind, and those products won't exactly break the bank either. Cubase 7.5 even comes with pretty viable convolution and algorhythmic reverbs (REVerence and the new, still somewhat overlooked, but beautiful REVelation) out of the box.
But I am not looking for ambience; I'm looking for vibrato. DG lead me to the Solo C Trumpet's manual which shows all of the articulations that this VSL instrument has. All well and good, but it only gives me 5 different velocities. The question remains: is there smooth gradual vibrato between the velocities? Combined with crescendo, this instrument would suit my needs. J.
If you enable "Velocity Cross Fade" you will be able to smoothly transition through the different velocities. Keep in mind, when Velocity xFade is enabled, what value you include in the velocity controller will be ignored, and the value from Velocity xFade (controller CC2) will be taken instead. In the cases where you don't need velocity xFade, you can turn it off and program velocities like you normally do.
Also, if you need to transition between vibrato and non vibrato patches you can use slot xFade (combined with Velocity xFade). Take the non vibrato/vibrato patches and put them in the same slot (one occupies the "a" slot and the other occupies the the "b" slot). With slot xFade you can cross fade between them.
Cheers,
Nektarios
@nektarios said:
If you enable "Velocity Cross Fade" you will be able to smoothly transition through the different velocities. Keep in mind, when Velocity xFade is enabled, what value you include in the velocity controller will be ignored, and the value from Velocity xFade (controller CC2) will be taken instead. In the cases where you don't need velocity xFade, you can turn it off and program velocities like you normally do.
Also, if you need to transition between vibrato and non vibrato patches you can use slot xFade (combined with Velocity xFade). Take the non vibrato/vibrato patches and put them in the same slot (one occupies the "a" slot and the other occupies the the "b" slot). With slot xFade you can cross fade between them.
Cheers,
Nektarios
Thank you, Nektarios. Very useful advice because I am completely new to VSL. Note taken! J.
Nektarios: how fast is the fastest vibrato I can obtain with Trumpet C Standard? I need fast. Of course, gradual increase too, but that's mostly for symphonic; for certain genres of pop it needs to be fast in forte. I have melodic lines in Italian style with tinges of Sicilian scales that must come to the listener "in his face".
Thanks for the info, J.