@civilization 3 said:

I'm unclear on 'VE within Logic'. AFAIK Vienna Ensemble non-pro is a server that connects to the DAW host and provides hosting in a separate process, same as VE Pro. In which case I don't think there's anything really different. 

But unless there is something I'm missing, Logic is not the instrument host really so you would benefit from multicore. I just don't think 12 core is called for; I would rather have two machines each with 6 as that forces distribution that I don't believe VE delivers on a single machine.

Sorry! I actually meant VI within Logic, as in I load VI pro instances directly to my midi tracks. An exception is Dimension strings where I load a VE per section. 

I have this observation:

When I started with VSL, I only had the SE vol.1 and plus. I was loading everything to VE, and I had something like 3 VE instances with around 48 tracks in total. Then when I started using Dimension Strings and Brass, the track count multiplied and I had to have quite a lot of instances of VE.

Then, when I was trying out MIRx, I downloaded the demo song for it. I've realised that every instrument (41 in total) was directly loaded to a midi track as a VI pro instrument, bypassing the VE completely. The performance was quite good, so I did the same for my template. I still don't exactly know what would I be missing out by not using VE, other than the fact that in VE, all the instruments are at the same place, easy to find. But I don't mind that in Logic.

Then, I did the following test: I put 16 Dimension Violins to a VE instance. When I record all of them simultaneously, Logic was using just one core. When I played them back, Logic was using just one core (even when I select a stale audio track, for example). The performance was obviously not so good. Then, I loaded the same instruments directly as VI pro instances within logic, so one VI pro per midi track. When recording, Logic again processed them in one core, but when I played back, Logic used all the cores (or I should say threads actually) equally, which resulted in a better performance.

I searched through the forums to find out about any performance increase in using VE pro in a single computer, but I couldn't find any. I would be glad if some one can point me to a thread where I can read about it, or write their own experiences about it because from what I could gather, if I compare using individual VI pro instances to using VE pro to host everything, the difference only seems to be the fact that VE pro is more organized, and one does not need to reload samples when one changes projects etc. with VE pro. 

But I think, when one uses VE in a track in Logic, and uses 16 channels (=instruments) within that, Logic seems to treat that whole VE instance as a single instruments and processes them in a single core. But I only monitored this in Logic; it is possible that the VE server is redistributing that load in the background. 

Did anyone else try using VI pro directly as an instrument in Logic? Or what else may I be missing?

I have not used other than Logic instruments, ESX in Logic so, no experience to draw on.
I have this factoid that pops into mind from your scenario, 'in live mode, Logic uses only one core'.

VE or VE Pro is in its own process, so I don't know why Logic has anything to say about the distribution in this case.
I think that in Activity Monitor when I see "316%" for Vienna Ensemble Pro 64-bit, >3 cores are being used.

@Another User said:

> What does IAC sending MIDI do to make it so?

IAC is inside MAC OS, so it is quite normal it used less CPU than an external appication.

My last query is a mistake from a mistake reading. I though you were, in addition to using something other than VE Pro on the network one way, both ways.

The only thing I can even guess as to knowing how many cores is used is Activity Monitor, % of CPU per application.
 I already saw your claim.

From my understanding, 'all 12 cores are being used' means you are seeing in all over 1100% of CPU for VE Pro in Activity Monitor. My understanding could be mistaken, but I know that 'it's easy to monitor the load on all the cores' definitely does not help that understanding.

@Another User said:

> What does IAC sending MIDI do to make it so?

IAC is an inside of MAC OS, so it is quite normal it used less CPU than an external application i.e. VSL AU plug in .

I have seen it using a second core when the 1st core was in red, is it an improvement of last Logic version ? of Last Mac OS version ? no idea

Try it and you will gain a few instrument before getting click and pops, I dont know if it is improving load repartition !

Using VI IN LOGIC IS THE WORSE YOU CAN DO ; it does not share memory between instrument and it is using much more CPU than VE PRO/VE PRO SERVER

You like cutting spagetti in two by there thickness [;)]  (French expression LOL)

Ok, thanks. I don't know what to make of those graphics though. It is using more cores than I believed I think. Some of the green areas are not very tall and with Cubase not playing back two of them do not indicate the system is using any, then there is slight usage. I could maybe convince myself that the 14 I have assigned are being used and the 2 that leaves Cubase are then used, but I wouldn't want to argue that.

I'm not having pops and clicks but my latency is maxed out. What it will do with more to handle is simply drop out. Maybe more cores would work.

@Cyril said:

IAC is an inside of MAC OS, so it is quite normal it used less CPU than an external application i.e. VSL AU plug in .

LOL! yeah I think I understood that much; I don't know why you thought that was my problem with your statement, which was does that mean distribute to cores better. I think it does not.

I'm not worried about CPU per se. I still think I want more even distro to cores. I think really to do much more I need more hardware one way or another.

IN fact, though, I added another instance to test something to help another user and forget to give one of the instances I'm using two cores I borrowed from it back; and I got drop outs, which abated when I gave the two cores back.

The 'history' window looks like 8 cores are being used around twice as heavily as the rest; every other one used half as much. I guess the virtual cores.

@Oguz Sehiralti said:

I searched through the forums to find out about any performance increase in using VE pro in a single computer, but I couldn't find any.

Did anyone else try using VI pro directly as an instrument in Logic? Or what else may I be missing?

I don't know how bad Logic is, but I have seen benchmarks that made complete sense to me, ie., were not complicated, 'all things being equal' and for the things used in it Logic was four times more efficient.

Cubase does not use Core Audio directly, there is a thing called ASIO2CoreAudio.bundle. Cubase is not optimal under OSX in terms of virtual instruments. I will have moved to Logic or DP if VE Pro hadn't come along when it did, in fact I bought both.

@Another User said:

Using VI IN LOGIC IS THE WORSE YOU CAN DO ; it does not share memory between instrument and it is using much more CPU than VE PRO/VE PRO SERVER

In the evening, I will try routing Logic to a standalone instance of VE via IAC to see what I can do. Actually, I can't work without freezing tracks with my current rig, and if using VE pro through IAC is preferred for Logic/Mac setups, it's not going to help me much. But I'll just test it and write here what I find out. I hope standalone VE and VE pro are behaving similarly.

(I wish there were some kind of benchmarks about these things. It would be great if there was something like "recommended settings" and measurements for different kind of PC or Mac configurations.)

Also, if VE pro is absolutely necessary to get a proper performance from VSL products, I guess I might consider getting a PC slave and using my Macbook pro in the clamshell mode as a master. But I would really like to have a one machine setup. Let's see! I'll be back with some observations. 😊

Thanks for all the info so far, it's really helpful!

@Oguz Sehiralti said:

[when VE is used as an instrument in Logic, Logic basically treats it as a single instrument no matter how many VIs there are in that VE instance.

Ok, we're back to this. This: "as an instrument in Logic". The only time I connected {Logic} to VE Pro (and I do not believe there is a fundamental difference vis VE not-Pro) I had the VE Pro Server opened already. I don't know what the clause 'as an instrument' really represents; I was connecting to something outside of Logic, in other words. Is this bit something you are unaware of? I'm sure that you do not have to have it in Logic's process, as I don't even know how it can be merely an instrument in Logic like you believe it is. IE: it IS an 'instrument' to any DAW, but the plugin works to connect [Logic] to essentially a bridge, to another independent process which supports the VE or VE Pro host.

VE as 'an instrument in Logic' is not like VI as an instrument in Logic.
In any case, your instruments are going to be happier in VE than in Logic.

You open VE Service and then when you instantiate it 'as an instrument' you connect to it as a different process than Logic, which means that Logic is not the actual host of the VIs and its process determines nothing about CPU/cores.

Also, VE does work as a network. Open the 'Service' and when you connect to it, you are connecting to your computer as local host.
Also, too, I don't know anybody but Cyril that prefers using IAC. To me it's somewhat exotic.

@Oguz Sehiralti said:

[when VE is used as an instrument in Logic, Logic basically treats it as a single instrument no matter how many VIs there are in that VE instance.

Ok, we're back to this. This: "as an instrument in Logic". 

(...)

VE as 'an instrument in Logic' is not like VI as an instrument in Logic.
In any case, your instruments are going to be happier in VE than in Logic.

You open VE Service and then when you instantiate it 'as an instrument' you connect to it as a different process than Logic, which means that Logic is not the actual host of the VIs and its process determines nothing about CPU/cores.

Also, VE does work as a network. Open the 'Service' and when you connect to it, you are connecting to your computer as local host.
Also, too, I don't know anybody but Cyril that prefers using IAC. To me it's somewhat exotic.

I meant putting the VE connection to the "instrument" slot of a software instrument track in Logic, as opposed to running the standalone version. I didn't know how VEP is used and I thought people were using the standalone version but I was wrong. So, you're right, when I use VE, the core distribution seems to be handled by VE. I realized that the CPU meter of Logic and the CPU meter of the activity monitor are not the same, and VE distributed them equally to my 4 threads.

I also tried connecting to the standalone VE through IAC and route the sound back via Soundflower. The performance was worse than using VE server. So I'm back to the beginning. 😊 Later on, if I have the time I'll try to demo VEP and compare it, but I think I should get a somewhat similar performance.

@Oguz Sehiralti said:

[I also tried connecting to the standalone VE through IAC and route the sound back via Soundflower.

You do not need Soundflower.

IAC is not exotic [H] as it is an inside of MAC OS

In the Audio/Midi app you can also define a Network Midi (I have not tried it yet with VSL)

civilization 3 : you dont have pop and drop outs but you are using the BIG buffer ; but do to 512 or 256 you will have pops and dropout. If you have time it maybe worth trying IAC with 512 or 256. 

I do not trust Logic Meters

@Oguz Sehiralti said:

the VE connection to the "instrument" slot of a software instrument track in Logic, as opposed to running the standalone version.

However if you ever do VE Pro as audio input, it is now an external device and printing its result offline doesn't happen, it's realtime or nothing.

Standalone, that is something other than a plugin and it does not use the LAN to talk to other modules. The model for 'standalone' is really Gigastudio which got MIDI into it from, and audio back out of it to, the sequencer by external means. Cf., Kontakt used as a live instrument connected to controllers and audio out to amplifiers. I don't know why someone would connect a DAW to a standalone VE, don't need to know, don't care.

@civilization 3 said:

 I don't know why someone would connect a DAW to a standalone VE, don't need to know, don't care.

Instrument are sharing memory

Less CPU load

"don't care."

Ok, as to IAC. First, @ Oguz, the reason you do not need Soundflower is that VE Pro is already getting audio back to Logic, whether through gigabit ethernet or local host. Typically using IAC, one does not have this going on.

Cyril: You believe it's more efficient to send MIDI through ports in IAC to VE Pro than through VE Pro.
How, why? So far you seem to have asserted that through being internal to the OS it is. That doesn't show me. I can equally find someone saying that IAC isn't priority to the OS like VE Pro.

IAC would be a thing for a Logic person as you get additional MIDI ports through it rather than this Event Input kludge. I hadn't given it any thought but given that, I think if I was using Logic for VE Pro I would be doing IAC to some extent.

Civilisation,

Having click and pop with Event input I have try IAC, no more problems, less CPU load

VSL have agree that IAC is more powerfull exempt you cannot bounce in backgroud

It's not hard to believe it's better than Event Input. However I don't need Event Input, I'm using it as VST 3.

@Another User said:

Having click and pop with Event input I have try IAC, no more problems, less CPU load

VSL have agree that IAC is more powerfull exempt you cannot bounce in backgroud

Does VE pro have the option to use IAC as an input even when VE pro is used as a plugin in Logic? If so, that might be another difference between VE and VE pro.

To your last question, yes.

This shows how to do it. You're replacing the output with IAC Bus. It's easier than this in Cubase, it was just a matter of enabling IAC and it appeared as a choice in MIDI output and then enabling it in VE Pro, after a restart it appears in the ports assignment.

VE Not-Pro - edit: *SERVICE*, what you connect to as plugin - apparently has no option for external MIDI so IAC isn't possible. Yes, that is a difference.
Note: it's the getting audio back to the DAW that has me caring not at all about its (standalone's) performance, here is too many moving parts to even remotely consider. Since I believe VE Pro does what it says on the tin in the first place.

@civilization 3 said:

To your last question, yes.

This shows how to do it. You're replacing the output with IAC Bus. It's easier than this in Cubase, it was just a matter of enabling IAC and it appeared as a choice in MIDI output and then enabling it in VE Pro, after a restart it appears in the ports assignment.

VE Not-Pro - edit: *SERVICE*, what you connect to as plugin - apparently has no option for external MIDI so IAC isn't possible. Yes, that is a difference.
Note: it's the getting audio back to the DAW that has me caring not at all about its (standalone's) performance, here is too many moving parts to even remotely consider. Since I believe VE Pro does what it says on the tin in the first place.

IAC is working very well betwen  Logic use the tutorial I have made  http://www.cyrilblanc.fr/VSL/tutorial.zip