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    @Beat Kaufmann said:

    I prepair each instrument in a way that it also could be heard as a soloist.

    That is a good point.  If you make even a secondary viola chordal accompaniment sound like what you hear live players doing it adds greatly to the naturalness.  And this is on parts that live players themselves would be bored by.   As a sample performer you cannot be as bored as they are in reality by less-than-spectacular parts. 

    ALso, I really agree on the compatibility between different but similar instruments within VSL.  This is one of the remarkable, great aspects of the library in how you can totally change an orchestration simply by substituting the same articulation names for a different instrument.  It is a wonderful way to experiment with orchestration by the way.  For example,  I recently discovered that the bass trumpet sounded better, in fact perfect, on the third horn part of a piece I was recording than an actual third horn part.  I would never have thought this in a live situation or in a written score.  It is pure experimentation which is allowed by this consistency across instuments that VSL has.  It is even more consistent within instrument groups such as the strings.  

    Here, you can originally record an entire string orchestra performance, with the biggest sounds such as Appassionata and Orchestral, and then create a completely different articulation groupp with Chamber and Sol simply by exchanging articulation names, and almost no tweaking because of the methodical sampling/naming of articulations.  You can then add that smalleer ensemble on top of your original for extremely complex effects especially considering you can do further humanizing within the MIDI tracks as well as VI. 

    All of this applies even more to Dimension, which functions as an even great amount individual control and complexity.  So with the various string ensembles within VSL now the individual line complexity has become really close to live ensembles. In fact, beyond some live ensembles in certain cases.


  • Hi again to all!

    Well, I went to a retro/film vibe at the end, and took the theme from the Italian-Russian movie "The Red Tent". It apparently had two soundtracks, worldwide release with Morricone, and the Russian version by A.Zacepin - which I took for a spin.

    First is the wet, processed version (also in a manner to suit the style of the original), and the second is dry, pre-panned and some moderate pre-eq, which is inherent in the MIR dry sound as well I guess. Well I haven`t switched the MIR altogether, as it would leave just a plain mono stock of violins dead center (not interesting).

    I am far from satisfied with it - and I always struggle with the slow tracks more than lively ones, but some of the things I mentioned at the thread are there.

    https://vlzmusic.bandcamp.com/album/dimension-violins

    Thanks!

    Vlad.


  • What does this post have to do with this thread? 


  • Could you elaborate more, William?  If you mean the thread - well, I kinda was the first to engage in discussion with Beat, and decided to bring a demo to back up my remarks.  If you mean the demo - well, my point was to show, that DS has some things to say about regular ensemble usage, and it wasn`t meant purely for exoteric "individual 8 tracks playing" stuff.  Will be glad to hear your thoughts of course, just that your laconic inquire left me unsure.


  • Hi Beat. I think you original request was to hear some classical music, obviously so you could compare more easily. And it's a shame nobody have been able to give you that, but for me the extra "dimension" is not necessarily there. For me VSL is all about flexibility. This also counts in style and sound, and for me Dimension Strings gives great opportunities to make intimate string sounds, cause you can make you group what ever size you want and as much divisi you like.

    Yesterday I worked on a feature film demo consisting of a lot of prepared piano and 4 violins, 2 violas, 2 cellos. This sound would never be possible with any other library or combination of libraries for that matter. Although I in the end would substitute the strings, the demo speaks for it self and can make the translation to my director! https://www.dropbox.com/s/pgzlq5cqdyqndb0/Full%20Contact%20demo%201v3.mp3?dl=0

    After 1:45 in the demo nothing interesting happens in the strings! Best EDIT: I realize plenty of people already chimed in on this and gave you demoes not containing what you asked for, so you can ignore my post, since it's just another: DS can do stuff other libraries can't.

  • @saxmand : I don't think any other string library I have (VSL or otherwise) could have done what you have done with Dimension Strings here.  Well done indeed.


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    @saxmand said:

    Hi Beat. I think you original request was to hear some classical music, obviously so you could compare more easily. And it's a shame nobody have been able to give you that, but for me the extra "dimension" is not necessarily there. For me VSL is all about flexibility...

    Hi Saxmand

    Thanks for your effort and your very interesting example. Yes your piece seems really made for using the DS-Library.

    Hi all

    Thanks once more to all who helped here in a way.

    The reason why I'm back now only just after a week: Things have changed! [<:o)] [H]...

    I worked hard on a...  Chamberstrings - Dimensionstrings - demo ... and of course without MIR.

    I used the same piece of music and played it with the Chamber library, with those of the DS-library and also with...

    I used the same mixer, the same output Bus/Effects...

    ... and

    here is the result:



    All the important matters are explained in the video. Press "pause" for a better reading of all the context information.

    !!!!!!!!!!!

    IMPORTANT:

    Keep in mind that this is a comparison of the sounds of all the libraries.

    So the video doesn't show for example the huge flexibility of the Dimension Strings compared to the other libraries - specially in connection with MIR.

    !!!!!!!!!!!!

    Finally the whole piece - now with a recorder as well: Telemann, D-Suite for Viola

    Above all: Have fun!

    Beat


    - Tips & Tricks while using Samples of VSL.. see at: https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/vitutorials/ - Tutorial "Mixing an Orchestra": https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/mixing-an-orchestra/
  • WoOOow!!!!!!! This is an awesome demo Beat!!! I am shocked! Loooveed it! GREAT JOB!!! Thank you for sharing it!!! I love the reverb too!!! It sure puts things in great perspective now (happy to own all the string libraries now)... I also really enjoyed the mastering and presence of the pieces


    Honestly, I could not tell much of a difference between the pieces. :D

  • Thank you so much for doing this Beat! To my ears there isn't a huge difference between Chamber and DS here, but there is enough to validate my own decision to use Solo and DS as the core of my chamber ensemble template (rather than Chamber and Solo). The ability to flow in and out of divisi is of course an added flexibility with this configuration.


  • Yes thanks for doing this example Beat.  I think I have a very slight preference for the chamber strings and/or chamber strings plus solo strings sound myself, but there isn't a lot in it.

    What has drawn you to using the HOFA reverb over others available (say the hybrid or convolution reverbs in the Vienna Suite) if I may ask?


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    @Arbee said:

    To my ears there isn't a [quote=nektarios]Honestly, I could not tell much of a difference between the pieces. :D

    Hello

    In addition to the video some posts above I can offer further more files for an even better comparison.

    Here is a zip-file with the same music but with only one instrument per audio file.

    So you will be able to compare 3SoloViolins, Ch-Violins, Ch+SO-Violins, DS-Violins, dito Violas, dito Cellos one by one so to say.

    Edit:

    I've decided to delete these Links because I don't want to play a library off against another.

    CH-DS-Comparison-Kaufmann_mp3-files.zip (mp3-files)

    CH-DS-Comparison-Kaufmann_AAC-files.zip (AAC-files)

    Once more...

    ...the whole piece - now with a recorder as well: Telemann, D-Suite for Viola

    Have fun

    Beat


    - Tips & Tricks while using Samples of VSL.. see at: https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/vitutorials/ - Tutorial "Mixing an Orchestra": https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/mixing-an-orchestra/
  • Thanks Beat, and to everyone else who posted a demo.

    That's a fantastic video! I think I might have to consider buying Chamber Strings...


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    @Stephen Rees said:

    What has drawn you to using the HOFA reverb over others available (say the hybrid or convolution reverbs in the Vienna Suite) if I may ask?

    I own Altiverb (still 6), The Cubase ReVerence, VSL Hybrid, VSL Convolution, Pristine from Voxengo,... and also the HOFA-Convolution Reverb + a lot of additional IRs of course.

    For creating rooms I most time only use the first part of an Impuls Respons (the Early Reflections). This for getting the depth without the more or less staic convolution tail.

    So an Algorithmic Reverb is for the tail later on (over all).

    Now HOFA comes with some IRs which are great for this first IR-Part.

    In other words I always use the effect which can solve a problem the way I like.

    Beat


    - Tips & Tricks while using Samples of VSL.. see at: https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/vitutorials/ - Tutorial "Mixing an Orchestra": https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/mixing-an-orchestra/
  • Awesome! With the individual tracks I can distinguish the differences. The billion dollar question... How would this same piece sound with MIR? You have really opened my eyes when it comes to reverbs!! I personally find this the best classical piece I have ever heard that has great loudness and presence and feels so natural...

  • Hello Beat,

    thanks for the effort of doing this video, I consider it very helpful as a possibility to compare the sound of the libraries.

    But what I do not understand, what this has to do with your own original intention to open this thread. You claimed that you never heard the "dimension", you said that you were missing demonstrations of the real capabilities of the dimension strings. And whenever someone chimed in to explain, that the VI Pro humanization section is doing well enough you repeatedly insisted in having individual tracks for each player, even with different articulations for each of them.

    Your video simply uses the pre-built All-Player-matrices, and you use your own reverb solution. So the only difference to existing DS-Demos is the lack of the MIR Reverb. I'd like to note, that that is not far from the little demo I posted some days ago.

    So, as good a comparison tool your video might be, I do not hear the "dimension" you asked for so badly in it either. I would be interested if you for yourself have come to a conclusion. Do you still think that applying individual articulations to each player would enhance the performance, or do you - now that you own the DS and know how they work - agree, that the humanization function is enough, as everybody already suggested before you made this demo?


  • @Beat: Yes thanks for those files.  Tremedously useful to have them broken down like that.  I'm still very drawn to the solo strings and chamber strings sounds (also the mix of the two together which sounds very natural and pleasing to me) over Dimension Strings in this case.

    Thanks also for your explanation re the HOFA reverb.  The space you have created here sounds magnificent.  Detailed but open and spacious.  Bravo!


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    @MassMover said:

    So, as good a comparison tool your video might be, I do not hear the "dimension" you asked for so badly in it either. I would be interested if you for yourself have come to a conclusion. Do you still think that applying individual articulations to each player would enhance the performance, or do you - now that you own the DS and know how they work - agree, that the humanization function is enough, as everybody already suggested before you made this demo?

    Hello Massmover

    Edit:

    I've decided not to give any official comment about the different libraries. I don't want to put up one library against the other. here.

    Answer deleted

    Hope you can understand my decision you got the answer anyway.

    Beat


    - Tips & Tricks while using Samples of VSL.. see at: https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/vitutorials/ - Tutorial "Mixing an Orchestra": https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/mixing-an-orchestra/
  • To me this demonstrated that VSL string libraries sound great no matter which one you choose! BUT to me your demo was a big statement on alternative reverbs considering that I am shopping around for a good one. I always thought MIR is overpriced, and I so wish they dropped the price (and no, I don't want MIR PRO 24). I am not ready to download their demo as I am going away on vacation soon.

  • I totally disagree with Beat Kaufman about MIR and Dimension Strings. 

    MIR is the best reverb ever created for orchestra samples.  It is a masterpiece of engineering exactly suited to what is needed for a symphony orchestra, and I do not understand how he can trash it, preferring a lame algorhythmic reverb or some altiverb-type generic sound to the amazing spatial depth and sound of MIR tweaked perfectly for the VSL samples.   It is  totally wrong to say it is  "boxy."   It sounds rich and full.

    Also, what is this thread for in general? To trash Dimension Strings?  Why do you want to do that?  You "probably never heard the Dimension. "   Well LISTEN CLOSER is my advice.  

    I strongly feel people should not post things that criticize VSL's work in this negative way.   It is a fabulously beautiful sound they have created  so it should not be attacked like that.


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    @William said:

    I totally disagree with Beat Kaufman about MIR and Dimension Strings. 

    MIR is the best reverb ever created for orchestra samples.  It is a masterpiece of engineering exactly suited to what is needed for a symphony orchestra, and I do not understand how he can trash it, preferring a lame algorhythmic reverb or some altiverb-type generic sound to the amazing spatial depth and sound of MIR tweaked perfectly for the VSL samples.   You are totally wrong Beat about it sounding "boxy."   It sounds rich and full.

    Also, what is this thread for in general? To trash Dimension Strings?  Why do you want to do that?  You "probably never heard the Dimension. "   Well LISTEN CLOSER is my advice.   You'll hear it - unless you are TONE-DEAF.  

    I strongly feel you should not post things that criticize VSL's work in this negative way.  It is very irritating to me.   And why?  Because you have no right to do that.  You don't have anything better, you have not spent vast sums of Euros creating it, and figured out every possible way to make it sound as good as it can be. And you are wrong about the sound of the library.  It is a fabulously beautiful sound they have created - so stop attacking it.

    William I hope you can find serenity in a universe where different people will have different opinions about what sounds beautiful.