Vienna Symphonic Library Forum
Forum Statistics

199,078 users have contributed to 43,153 threads and 258,892 posts.

In the past 24 hours, we have 4 new thread(s), 18 new post(s) and 66 new user(s).

  1. Home
  2. Orchestration & Composition
  3. Your Music
  4. Some Clarity In String Articulations: Detache vs Legato and Portato vs Staccato
  • J
    J
    last edited
    last edited

    @JimmyHellfire said:

    Staccato, and its sibling, the spiccato, are currently obviously very popular in "trailer" and Hollywood action music with all those repeated rhythmical ostinato figures and slamming low double basses with celli octaves on top and all that. Can sound really cool and powerful when not overused.

    So what about spiccato?  I've never really been able to wrap my head around spiccato.  And I guess it would be pretty disgusting if I actually did wrap my head around spiccato, or a tree, a telephone pole or anything else for that matter.[+o(] 

    To me, spiccato just sounds like 2/3rds of a staccato.  Why not just use a lower velocity staccato or a "short staccato?"  When would you use a spiccato?

    BTW Guy Bacos has produced some great video demos for most of the major instrument collections.  What I like about them is he shows you how just about every articualtion in the library can be used giving you an idea of how to incorporate those articulations in your composition.

    Here's a link to the solo strings:  http://www.vsl.co.at/en/211/442/344/350/1030/643.htm

    Chamber Strings 1:  http://www.vsl.co.at/en/211/442/344/351/1544/1203.htm

    And Appassionata 1 :  http://www.vsl.co.at/en/211/442/344/422/1546/1205.htm

    I hope they help.
  • J
    J
    last edited
    last edited

    @BachRules said:

    William, which taiko-legato is best for (a) Hans Zimmer sound and (b) Zack Hemsey sound?

    Answer...

    (a) TKperf_legato_piece of cardboard_thump!

    (b) TKperf_legato smaller piece of cardboard_thud
  • J
    J
    last edited
    last edited

    @jasensmith said:

    So what about spiccato?  I've never really been able to wrap my head around spiccato.  And I guess it would be pretty disgusting if I actually did wrap my head around spiccato, or a tree, a telephone pole or anything else for that matter. 

    To me, spiccato just sounds like 2/3rds of a staccato.  Why not just use a lower velocity staccato or a "short staccato?"  When would you use a spiccato?

    The bowing technique of spiccato is quite different and therefor the sound.

    The standard staccato stroke is straight and rigid, and the bow doesn't actually leave the string. Therefor, the string can't vibrate and "ring out", and the note deadens off. There is also the possibility of lifting the bow after the stroke, but let's ignore that right now.

    When playing spiccato, the player lets the bow "fall" on the string and bounce off it during a stroke. As this is also a quick, short motion, the initial contact of the bow hair with the string produces a short note, similar to a standard staccato - but as the bow bounces off, it lets the string ring out for a moment. This leaves us with a somewhat shorter attack and a more "ambient" tail of the note.

    I feel that the spiccato sounds more swift, more light-footed and playing a figure spiccato has a certain "swing" to it, in contrast to the full sounding rigidness of the staccato. You could of course shorten the duration of the staccato notes and use a lower velocity, and I often do that. But what you don't get with staccato is that "bounciness" and the airy decay of the note, it just has a different, more swinging character.

    When I'm doing repeated patterns and rhythmic motives with a lot of notes, I like to lean somewhat more on the spiccato, because staccato all the way could easily sound too overbearing and too stiff. For me, spiccato works more when I'm trying to suggest a feeling of "motion".

    Or we could also say: staccato is like shooting someone with a crossbow, while spiccato is a little more like whipping them. Now that's something to wrap one's head around ... wonder what's the association with tremolo?

    P.S. That solo violin video from Guy Bacos just doesn't get old. It really demonstrates a great sample library in the hands of an admirably skilled user. Every time I see it, I'm impressed to no end
  • N
    N
    Great, thanks for the links! Will check them out. Very helpful. Concerning spiccato... Before switching to Orchestral music as my preferred style, I always thought of these rhythmical ostinatos as staccatos (don't forget, I have absolutely no background in classical music, only electronic music). So when I bought my first VSL, and started creating my first basic pieces, I realized the stacatto doesn't sound the way I was expecting it to sound. I was creating these 1/16th note ostinatos, and even though the sound was nice, it was not what I was expecting. So out I was in the search of this mystery articulation the way I was envisioning it in my head. In the end, I found, that articulation was spicatto. What makes it sound so distinct, I believe is the bouncing of the bow (correct me if I am wrong). The other thing I realized, if a violin player played 1/16th note staccatos for a long time, it would be an extremely physical demanding performance. Am I right or no? I think a spicatto would be less demanding for a player. Again that is when playing these long ostinato pieces. Again, these are conclusions I reached myself thinking about how to sound as natural as possible. Those who are violin players can freely pitch in!
  • N
    N
    Thank you JimmyHellfire! Just saw your reply after posting mine! Perfect answer!!!
  • J
    J

    Hey Jimmy, 

    Thanks for your insight and thorough knowledge on all of this.  I appreciate it.

    And yes those videos are excellent[Y] I find myself reffereing to them constantly.
  • B
    B
    last edited
    last edited

    @BachRules said:

    William, which taiko-legato is best for (a) Hans Zimmer sound and (b) Zack Hemsey sound?

    Answer...

    (a) TKperf_legato_piece of cardboard_thump!

    (b) TKperf_legato smaller piece of cardboard_thud

    Thank you.
  • B
    B

    fp versus sfz?
  • T
    T

    Fortepiano implies a note that is played loud and suddenly silenced, forced into a lower level, you can think that is played one dynamic level higher than the surrounding notes and then suddenly one dynamic level lower. Sforzando implies a note that is played in a higher velocity than the surrounding notes, but some brass players will use it as an excuse to blare the note, so watch it.
  • B
    B

    Thank you!
  • N
    N
    Thank you! I wish there was an "Articulation Reference Guide" document that describes what each articulation is, and how to best combine each one. Some are straightforward, but others are not. For example, I still don't get portato. I understand a bit the concept when it's played on slow melodies (as you slur you emphasize each note), but I don't understand how one would play a fast melody (1/16th notes) as portato.
  • M
    M

    Consider any sample library as buying an instrument. When you buy a clarinet you do not get any hint how to play it - at best you might get some basic fingering chart, if it is a very cheap instrument aimed at beginners. But to learn the capabilities of it you will need at least a self teaching book, or get a teacher.

    To use the instrument "VSL library" you also need to know (or learn), what to to with it. Best way would be to get some books on orchestration. There you'll find your "articulation reference guide".
  • B
    B
    last edited
    last edited

    @Another User said:

    I swear theses guys must stay up late nights trying to figure out how to confuse their customers.

    [url]http://vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=40515[/url]

    Here is some articulation info that may interest you:

    [url]http://community.vsl.co.at/forums/t/37423.aspx[/url]

    [url]http://community.vsl.co.at/forums/t/37492.aspx[/url]

    [url]http://community.vsl.co.at/forums/t/37849.aspx[/url]
  • N
    N
    I agree with BachRules, and I definitely do not consider buying a sample library like buying an instrument -- it's not the same at all (apples and oranges). I think VSL is a wonderful and amazing product. Love it! But me being a software engineer for Wall Street firms, I can see the documentation is not thorough. I really appreciate that they take the time to answer all questions, but they must not assume their users are expert musicians. Even though they have great video tutorials, those tutorials are burried behind the site. The link to those videos should be the first thing you see when you enter vsl.co.at when you enter the main page. I sometimes end up finding these videos as I search on YouTube. These advanced concepts should be documented somewhere. I was shocked that nowhere did I find a description of performance legato/performance repetition etc. If that is a selling point for VSL, DOCUMENT IT for God's sake!
  • J
    J
    Shopping for sample libraries can be quirky. It must be immensely confusing and not very encouraging for an inexperienced potential customer to pull the plug. They might look at the products page and ask themselves: do I need the Special Edition 1 and 2, or should I go for the Super Special Bundle 3, or perhaps the Extra Extended Edition 1 + 2 or maybe two of the Standard Download Instruments along with an Full Collection of Sis-boom-bah? Then they might head over to Spitfire Audio and think: well, they have a fancy website and moody artwork with airplanes, factories and old people, but the product descriptions speak about murals, brushstrokes, earth, wind and fire or sound swamps. What am I actually getting? And then they look up the EastWest page and go: there's this thing called Hollywood Strings and lucky me, they're having a -150% discount on it this very moment.
  • N
    N
    It took me a while to understand VSL as a product but I am glad I settled with VSL though. During my research, I even emailed Hollywood composers for their opinion and all I got is a "each library has it's own sound" type of response.

    Between DVD (or now Collection Instruments), Special Edition, Single Instruments etc. Why not keep it simple? Make it one product and one name! In the end, the more articulations you buy, the more you pay. Why have two or three categories and upgrade paths? As matter of fact, this can be a lucrative thing for VSL if they can sell articulations for libraries. For instance, they could introduce more articulations for Appassionata, and as people need them, they buy them. I see a lot of great articulations in the Solo libraries, that I wish were in Appassionata or Chambers, but they are not. The model they have now, if you buy a full library, your done. No chance you will get more articulations.

    Changing gear now, me as a newcomer. I am wondering, what is this expression slider in VIPRO? I open the documentation, I go to reference number 9, and I see: Expression  Sets master expression volume. ?????? And what is expression???? Sorry for my venting.......
  • N
    N
    Thank you BachRules for your reference points. I am just trying to make a point that this information should be available in a manual instead of being hunted in a forum.
  • B
    B
    last edited
    last edited

    @nektarios said:

    Thank you BachRules for your reference points. I am just trying to make a point that this information should be available in a manual instead of being hunted in a forum.

    I'd put it in a manual. More informed users -> more better music -> more people saying "that sounds great, what library did you use?" -> more sales; but that's just me. If it were easier to get information about VSL, it would be easier for me to choose VSL when I'm deciding which library to use for a project.
  • N
    N
    Yeap! I sometimes feel I should start this document and have everyone contribute to it. Not sure I am at that stage yet.
  • R
    R

    Great answer. Very helpful for me, too ! Thank you.

     

    Raymond
  • PaulP Paul moved this topic from Orchestration & Composition on