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I think the pragmatic answer is that tool which transforms midi channel into controller or note message.
VSL goes back to the beginning of time in terms of control of sample instruments (cf. Performance Tool, Gigasampler) and there is I think an expectation of an end user that grew tired of a new track every time you want the next articulation.
Hi George,
I understand you desired workflow, I used to work like that during a short period where I was new to orchestral samples and had hands onto the EastWest Orchestra. As those were my first steps into virtual orchestration, most of the times 4-5 articulations seemed sufficient to me. When I moved to Vienna Instruments, I tried to implement this workflow and - just as you - had to learn, that this is not possible within VI.
But, I also learned, that the note-by note midi-channel is a unique Logic-feature. It is not possible to assign an individual channel per event in ProTools, and I do not know, if it is possible in Cubase or DP.
However, when I started out to really use the abundance of articulations of the larger libraries, I soon realized, that the limitation to 16 slots would not be acceptable for me either, so I changed my approach to using keyswiches, and I advise you to do so as well.
Anyway, your repeated insisting on noting that VI is not multitimbral is not helping. You are ignoring all the hints, that you are comparing the wrong products. You have to compare Play/Kontakt with Vienna Ensemble (and not with VI). You can load 16 VIs into one VE instance, and you load the desired articulation into each VI. Tho whole setup can be stored from the VE host (as viframe), so that all VIs including the loaded patches can be restored with one mouseclick - exactly as you would do using contact.
MassMover, I really appreciate you sharing your experience and the suggestion to consider adapting to a new workflow using keyswitches.
I have been using my current workflow within Logic for a long time and really enjoy the fact that I can assign a unique MIDI channel to individual notes in order to change articulations. I'm all for embracing the future and adapting, but this workflow is so fast and clean it's difficult to consider another. I do use the entire catalog of EastWest orchestral samples but would enjoy incorporating the Vienna sounds too, I was rather surprised though to find out that I couldn't use my existing workflow.
I do realize that a more appropriate comparison would be of VE Pro to PLAY, which allows generally the same articulation selecting method and more. At this stage I am trying out the various methods available within Vienna Instruments and VE Pro for articulation selection.
Thanks everybody for all the suggestions and tips.
Geore, I understand what you are asking for, and like everyone else I'd urge you to learn to use key switches to change articulations and enable velocity crossfade on your instruments.
However, if the transformers don't work, the only solution I can think of for you would be to write a program in Max that would be between your DAW and VI. Load the desired instrument in VI -> When ever data over a new midi channel is sent the Max program intercepts it and -> sends a key switch based on what midi channel is sent, as opposed to actually changing the midi channel (This is just a basic outline, there are more details that would need to be addressed but you get the idea)
Honestly, I don't see how having every different articulation on a seperate midi channel is more convient then having an entire instrument on single channel and being able to change articulations via key switches, and I would be worried about stuck notes, but if it works for you then thats all that matters. Good luck.
Michael
@mschmitt said:
However, if the transformers don't work,
It will work, you can do a lot of things in the Environment of Logic, I use Bank and Program changes to deal with my Articulations changes
With the new Logic X you can write Macro( in Java ?), but you cannot acces to the Score events yet !
I just received this :
@mschmitt said:
Honestly, I don't see how having every different articulation on a seperate midi channel is more convient then having an entire instrument on single channel and being able to change articulations via key switches, and I would be worried about stuck notes, but if it works for you then thats all that matters. Good luck.
This might be because you are not aware how Logic is handling midi channel information. Each single event, be it a note or a CC has its own channel information, usually set to 1. Logic uses this to handle piano staves with flexible splitpoints - notes which are set to channel 3 are displayed in the lower staff, channel 1 in the upper.
In the track settings you usually select ONE midichannel, so that the individual note-by-note channels are ignored, and all events are sent to your VSTs on that selected channel. So the note-by-note distinction is merely meant for logics internal use.
BUT, you can swich the track's channel to ALL, which means that the individial channel information is forwarded to the receiving instrument. So, you do not have multiple midi tracks (one for each articulation) which all adress the same multitimbral plugin, but one single track that controls the multi. You can consider the individual channel information as a third note information (besides pitch and velocity) so that you do not need any further entries (like keyswiches or CCs).
Indeed I would find it VERY useful, if there was a way to switch between more than 16 articulations by simply altering one value which is directly tied to the specific note, just as you alter velocity. VI has 144 Cells, maybe 127 possible slots would suffice.
Cubase Expression maps seem to come close to that approach, and maybe I will give the above mentioned Articulation maps PRO a try when I finally upgrade to Logic X.
Thinking about the VE workaround - this is not really an equivalent, as it would not be possible to play - say - a sustain patch, and then a legato transition, because the legato patches won't trigger the transition from a note which is played in another instance of VI
@MassMover said:
Thinking about the VE workaround - this is not really an equivalent, as it would not be possible to play - say - a sustain patch, and then a legato transition, because the legato patches won't trigger the transition from a note which is played in another instance of VI
It's good to hear someone elses point of view who understands the workflow I've been ranting and raving about.
[quote=MassMover]Indeed I would find it VERY useful, if there was a way to switch between more than 16 articulations by simply altering one value which is directly tied to the specific note, just as you alter velocity.If the curent AU spec was updated to support more MIDI channels (64-128) that would be ideal.
@MassMover said:
... Thinking about the VE workaround - this is not really an equivalent, as it would not be possible to play - say - a sustain patch, and then a legato transition, because the legato patches won't trigger the transition from a note which is played in another instance of VI....
If it triggered a transition, you wouldn't be getting true multitimbrality; so it would still be vintage-synthy. Multitimbrality is virtual modules acting independently.
Of course you are right. i just wanted to clarify, that there isn't a 1:1 solution for George to keep his workflow. Actually, within Logic, multitimbrality can in combination with some virtual instruments (f.i. Kontakt) be abused to achieve a quite convenient way of articulation switching. Contrary to my first post I later realized, that VIs performance scripting relies on staying in the same instance, so this "feature" won't work with VE.
@MassMover said:
... you can swich the track's channel to ALL, which means that the individial channel information is forwarded to the receiving instrument. So, you do not have multiple midi tracks (one for each articulation) which all adress the same multitimbral plugin, but one single track that controls the multi. You can consider the individual channel information as a third note information (besides pitch and velocity) so that you do not need any further entries (like keyswiches or CCs).Indeed I would find it VERY useful, if there was a way to switch between more than 16 articulations by simply altering one value which is directly tied to the specific note, just as you alter velocity. VI has 144 Cells, maybe 127 possible slots would suffice.
Cubase Expression maps seem to come close to that approach, and maybe I will give the above mentioned Articulation maps PRO a try when I finally upgrade to Logic X....
On Windows with VST's in Reaper, which is all I know lately, it would be possible to write some code that intercepts MIDI from Reaper, translates channel-info into keyswitches, and send it on to VI. Easy code, but not as easy to find someone with the right expertise to implement it. Maybe the same is possible on Mac with AU, and maybe that's what was meant by the suggestion about "Max" above? All this potentially irrelevant to the OP's inquiry, because it would provide legato transitions instead of true multitimbrality.
Something else: under the MIDI spec (as I recall it from decades ago), each CC change goes out on a specific channel, so DAW's are free to set a CC to one value on one channel and set the same CC to a different value on a different channel at the same time. There'd need to be a system for mediating such conflicting data.
Cubase can also do channel assigment on a note by note basis.
You would never get a legato transition if you went from channel to channel because of the way MIDI works. Data is specific to the channel, and, for better or worse, messages between channels are incommunicado.
Forgive me for bringing this up again, or to come across as patronizing, but after reading this thread I'm still confused about what exactly the issue is with using Vienna Ensemble/Ensemble Pro. I just tried to do exactly what the OP is doing and it worked perfectly. I do almost exactly this every day, but I don't use it to switch articulations; I use it to send data to different channels in a divisi part on a note by note basis. For example, setting up Strings Ensemble on channel 1, then Violins 1 on channel 2, etc. That way I can sketch using a general patch and then just send different notes of my voicings to different channels. Then using Cubase Note Expressions I can actually shape the dynamic of the individual channels within a single MIDI track.
I've also done this within Sibelius.
Vienna Ensemble is a multitimbral host just like Kontakt/Play. The only difference is the tracks are laid out horizontally rather than vertically. From what I can see, the two do exaclty the same thing. Instead of loading Kontakt, just load Vienna Ensemble, not Vienna Instruments.
It might be due to the fact that the OP up to now was used to libraries with no legato transitions, hence, the midi-channel system had been a very conveniant way. At first glance this workflow could be transferred to VE, but you won't get legato transitions between different instances. Thatswhy this would only work, when only simple patches without performance algorithms would be used. As those are a main feature of VSL this approach is not working to the library's full extent.
Well, the VSL team could however implement midi channel information as another source for X/Y-axis-patch selection in the VI player. Of course, this would only work, if the VIs are loaded directly into the DAW. I guess, it would not be a very difficult task for the software engineers, so, I would appreciate this as another option.
@MassMover said:
Well, the VSL team could however implement midi channel information as another source for X/Y-axis-patch selection in the VI player. Of course, this would only work, if the VIs are loaded directly into the DAW. I guess, it would not be a very difficult task for the software engineers, so, I would appreciate this as another option.
I hope you get the functionality you want one way or another. As long as you can work efficiently (no unnecessary eye-motion, mouse-motion etc.), I don't see it mattering whether VI is receiving data marked "channel 1" or not. OP cares about that, but my impression of most users is that they care more about what their eyes and hands are doing than what particular numbers are being communicated beneath the surface between two software components.
If VSL dedicated MIDI channels 2 - 16 for this, that would preclude other uses for them in the future; the coding would be easy but the design decisions might not. On the other hand, you could get what you want by upgrading to Logix X and using Articulation maps PRO, or by using Max as described above (unless I've misunderstood something).
@BachRules said:
you could get what you want by upgrading to Logix X and using Articulation maps PRO, or by using Max
Thanks, but that would not allow me to quickly change the MIDI channel of a note within the score (as shown in the attached screenshot of Logic Pro X). For me, there is no opening any other MIDI editor, just a quick flip of the MIDI channel to change articulations directly within the score.
[quote=MassMover]Thats why this would only work when only simple patches without performance algorithms would be used. As those are a main feature of VSL this approach is not working to the library's full extent.Perhaps you are right as I am unfamiliar with VSL's current implementation of legato transitions. However, the old versions of their libaries for Logic's EXS24 sampler had the performance tool that activated the performance legato and repetitions.
I want to dive into these libraries but would like to maintain focus on the score when writing. That's all.
I'm so lost--- Logic X, Articulation Maps?[:S] I'm literally right now doing exactly what the OP wants. I loaded up Vienna Ensemble with 16 string sounds all on different channels. I'm controlling them all separately or together with a single MIDI track and manipulating nothing about the track except the channel number of the notes...[:)]
Load up one instance of Vienna Instruments within VE Pro and load that one instance with 16 articulations, and then...
Go into the score and select one note and change that note's MIDI number to reflect an articulation within the matrix of Vienna Instruments.
It's not possible. Vienna Instruments is not multitimbral.
Must be nice, getting that efficient workflow
Yes, it absoultely is.
@BachRules said:
you could get what you want... by using Max
Thanks, but that would not allow me to quickly change the MIDI channel of a note within the score (as shown in the attached screenshot of Logic Pro X). For me, there is no opening any other MIDI editor, just a quick flip of the MIDI channel to change articulations directly within the score.
It actually would allow you to "quickly change the MIDI channel of a note within the score, no opening of any other MIDI editor, just a quick flip of the MIDI channel to change articulations directly in the score". Where'd you get the idea it wouldn't?
