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  • Best combination of Libraries and Software?

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    P

    Hi, 

    My first VSL purchase was the "Vienna Imperial Piano" a few months ago, so In terms of the software, I just have the standard Vienna Instruments and Vienna Ensemble (non-PRO versions) that are licensed with all purchases (and the standalone piano software of course).

    I'm now considering whether to start expanding into the orchestral instruments. My aim is to get the most realistic orchestra for compositional purposes that I can afford, but my funds are very limited at this time, so I want to spend very wisely,

    Option 1.   = € 595

    The obvious entry path would be to get the Special Edition Vol. 1 Bundle, but from what I understand thus far, the SE instuments have a limited range of articulations, and therefore perhaps limited versatility and realism (compared to the Single Instruments and other VSL libraries).

    Secondly, from what I understand the SE versions have a different interface or way of working with presets (which is perhaps different from and/or incompatible with the way that other instrument libraries work ???)

    Option 2.   = €795

    Alternatively, the Dimension Strings looks very interesting, however I would definitely need to get in before the introductory offer expires in a few days. The down side of Option 2 is that I'd need to add the other orchestral sections at some point.  Obviously, the Dimension Strings will give superior results over the Special Edition strings, but the challenge then is to complete the remainder of the orchestra in a reasonably cost-effective manner. (I don't need a huge orchestra, just one that represents most or all of the core symphonic instruments).

    Expansion Option.   = €235

    I did notice that the "Vienna Ensemble PRO" software includes a library called "Epic Orchestra", so I wonder if that may be a practical way to build an orchestra (by using the Brass, Woodwind, and Percussion sections from Epic Orchestra with the Dimension Strings)? Obviously this would also provide the additional enhancements that come with the Ensemble PRO software (which I'm not sure that I would need, but are probably worthwhile having), but it appears that a few instruments like Trombones, Bassons, are not included in the Epic Orchestra.

    How does the Epic Orchestra compare to the Special Edition orchestra(s) and/or the various other orchestral libraries?

    Is there a more economical way to add Brass, Wind, and Percussion?

    Finally, If I was to go down the route of Dimension Strings (rather than Special Edition), then how well will that library work if I have only the standard Vienna Ensemble/Vienna Instrument software? I'm concerned that I may be forced to spend thousands more (which I don't have right now) on more advanced software (eg. MIR-PRO or MIR-PRO24, Vienna Instruments PRO, Vienna Ensemble PRO, Vienna Suite, etc) in order to reap the benefits of the more advanced Dimension Strings library.

    Are there any constraints or limitations that might compell me to purchase additional software in order to use the more powerful libraries such as Dimension Strings?  For example, is it possible to use the Dimension Strings library with the standard Vienna Instruments and Vienna Ensemble software, or is there a really compelling reason to use the PRO software with this library?

    I'd greatly appreciate any advice / comments / recommendations based on your experiences (especially if those comments were to arrive before the cutoff date for the Dimension Strings introductory offer! [;)] )

    -- Comments from VSL employees as well as VSL users are most welcome of course.
  • J
    J

    This is quite the conundrum Mr. Bach (any relation to the late great JS Bach?) 

    But since you already have the Imperial I think I would go for the Dimension Strings.  Then concentrate on writing some great Piano Strings compositions.

    Wait for another promotional offer or sale to come out then buy the SE.  If you buy the SE extended, it will qualify you for discounts on future extended libraries. 

    On the other hand, I have the SE extended which was my first VSL buy and a very good entry level product but 5 or 6 years later I rarely use it anymore.  So perhaps skip the SE all together and start buying the bigger libraries.  Again, wait for sales and I would probably go for a woodwinds collection which would complement the piano and strings nicely.
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    Mr Smith,

    It certainly is a conundrum.

    I assume that when you say "SE extended", you're referring to : "Special Edition Vol. 1 Bundle" which includes standard and extended articulations, and is currently € 595. (Have VSL had promotions on the Special Editions in the past? If so, do you remember when was the last time, and by how much were they discounted?)

    I wonder if you can elaborate on the reasons that you don't use this anymore. What combination of libraries do you currently have that makes the SE obsolete for you, and why?

    (I'm not sure of the wisdom of getting a library that I may not even use in a few years)

    Any observations about the software?

    Thanks
  • G
    G

    Hi Phil,

    I'm quite new in the VSL-world so I recently asked myself this kind of questions... And I'm a fund-limited-composer too [;)]

    First, I do agree with jasensmith.

    I don't know about the past Special Edition promotions but I'm sure that the actual Dimension Strings offer won't re-occur soon. Buying libraries is a real cost and I tend to look for offers first (I certainly wouldn't have bought the Dimension Strings if not). So, if you think this library is made for you, go for it !

    As you said : "Obviously, the Dimension Strings will give superior results over the Special Edition strings"

    I own Vienna Ensemble Pro and use it every day. However, as it was my first VSL purchase I never tried the standard version. It's a wonderful software but purchasing it for the Epic Orchestra seems worthless. The strings are "one instrument" (I mean that all sections of the string family are spread over one keyboard), the woodwinds too (forget about woodwind solos but the oboe d'amore's), and no trombone/tuba. On the other hand, I really love the Percussions, the Oboe d'Amore (they both are part of my actual orchestral template, the Cornet and the Epic Horns (too bad this one hasn't legato patch).

    If you want to complete your Dimension Strings at low price I suggest you to take a look at the Special Edition Vol.1 Woodwinds : for €75, you'll get the whole woodwind family and the most common articulations. This was my first VSL library and the only reason I don't use it anymore is that I bought all its Single Instruments one by one to get more articulations.

    Never tried any VSL brass so ask someone else...

    The Epic Orchestra Percussions are really great so I would say that the Special Edition Vol.1 Percussion & More is a great deal too. In comparison, you'd have the Epic Orchestra Percussions plus melodic percussions (wonderful !), a harp and other percussions. And for those who think the VSL percussions aren't big or cinematic (what a poor expression !) enough : they DO SOUND HUGE if you tweak them (and with a nice sound, not that ugly True Strike sound).

    Hope it will help !
  • P
    P

    Hi Groctave,

    I'm like you I think. (I do like a sale [:)] )

    I had wanted the Vienna Imperial for a long time, so when it came on special last year at about a 30% reduction I decided I could finally afford it, so snapped it up.

    I think that one of the issues, as I see it on the orchestral side, is that from a composer's point of view, I want access to as many articulations and dynamic choices as possible, so that there's maximum creative options available. Taking the string section as an example, It seems that libraries such as SOLO STRINGS I and II for example are designed for this purpose, BUT you only have access to a single voice, right?

    If you just want to compose for a real orchestra that's not a problem I think, --- you'd just pick a solo instrument with the maximum articulations for each of the orchestral instruments you wanted, and do the orchestration the old way, using your own judgement wrt.balance and timbre. 

    However, if you also want to try and emulate the balance and timbre of a full virtual orchestra, or go even further to producing and publishing your music, then you need to add more polyphony (for which one of the ensemble libraries eg. Dimension Strings, Orchestral Strings, Appassionata Strings, or even the Special Editions are required). --- The catch here, is that these libraries, although they have multiple voices / instruments, they don't include the full set of articulations that the SOLO libraries have, so you would then have to sacrifice some of the more advanced dynamics that you may have already composed for using the SOLO library(s).

    So, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that there's a bit of a CATCH-22 here: you can have the full expressiveness with the SOLO libraries on a single voice, but then it's not possible to make use of this full expressiveness across a fully polyphonic orchestra, because the other (ensemble style) libraries, whilst providing the polyphony, don't reproduce he full expressiveness of the SOLO / SINGLE instrument library(s).

    I may be completely off track here, as I've never used any of these libraries, but this is how it appears to me from looking at the "Sample Content" pages of some of these libraries. (Please, someone correct me if I'm wrong).

    Your comments about Epic Orchestra were interesting. Although I think that I read something to the effect of what you are saying about the ochestra being mapped to the keyboard that way, I thought that was just a default preset and that you would be able to change it or create your own mappings as it suited you.

    So, you've told me something I didn't knoiw, and if that's the case, then maybe Epic Orchestra is not a good choice. That said, it sounds like the Vienna Ensemble Pro software is still a good investment.

    I have in fact considered your last suggestion (the idea of getting individual Special Edition Vol.1 Woodwinds, Brass, and Percussion, however I suspect that I would probably want to also have the PLUS versions as well for the extra articulations that they add, which would I think push the cost up to pretty much the same as (or even more than) the cost of the entire Special Edition Vol.1 Orchestra Bundle.

    I too, largely agree with jasensmith's suggestions, but I'm on the fence about the versatility / expressiveness of the Special Edition instruments. It does seem to be the cheapest way to cover the main orchestral instruments, but I don't want to spend money on it now, and then find that I'm not satisfied with it and end up having to replace it with the FULL library instruments at a later date. That would be a waste of money, which in that scenario would be better spent on some fully articulated instruments instead (even though in the long run that's going to make for a much  more expensive orchestra).

    The problem is that, at best I can only afford one of these libraries at the moment.

    Dimension Strings I suspect may be a good investment at the current price, but no-one has yet indicated whether purchasing this would also require the more advanced software, and therefore extra cost. -- This choice would also mean I would be limited for now to Piano and Strings.

    Special Edition Vol 1 Bundle would give me a complete orchestra now, but I obviously still have my doubts about the expressiveness of it's instruments (compared to Dimension Strings or any other libraries). It does seem however to be the cheapest way to cover all the bases wrt. the core orchestral sounds.

    I think I'm going to have to stop sitting on the fence, and decide on one or the other, (but perhaps neither [:(] ).

    Thanks guys for your helpful comments.

    Keep 'em coming if you have any further thoughts! [;)]
  • P
    P

    I have an idea, in the form of an assignment for Guy Bacos.... [;)]

    Regarding my comment:

    [quote user="Phil Bach"]So, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that there's a bit of a CATCH-22 here: you can have the full expressiveness with the SOLO libraries on a single voice, but then it's not possible to make use of this full expressiveness across a fully polyphonic orchestra, because the other (ensemble style) libraries, whilst providing the polyphony, don't reproduce he full expressiveness of the SOLO / SINGLE instrument library(s).[/quote]

    ... maybe if Guy was to use his MIDI from the  Concerto Cadenza - Violin & Orchestra in the SOLO STRINGS I demos: https://www.vsl.co.at/en/211/442/344/350/565/350.htm with the Dimension Strings samples (for a single player obviously), that would give us a really good idea of the relative expressiveness of DS vs SOLO STRINGS.

    It would be really interesting to hear the result and compare with the original demo. I'm particularly interested in how Dimension Strings would deal with any SOLO STRING articulations which it doesn't actually implement.

    How about it Guy? Are you busy? [:)]

    Another challenge (open to all comers): Liszt Hungarian Rhapsody :


    using DS and / or SOLO STRINGS.

    (I suspect that this second challenge may not be achievable before the cutoff date of Feb 28)
  • G
    G

    Since my only string library is Dimension Strings, I've never tried the other ones. But comparing the Sample Content charts it really seems that "polyphonic orchestras" such as the Orchestral Strings I & II allow you to emulate a real orchestra with a lot of articulations and expressiveness.

    As far as I'm concerned, I chose the Special Edition Vol.1 Woodwinds library (for example) for a few reasons :

    - I hate the fashioned-excessively-reverberated-libraries because I like to position the instruments WHERE I WANT, and if it means just in front of the listener, I want to be able to do it

    - I wanted to get the 4 main woodwinds instruments (flute, oboe, clarinet and bassoon) and the 2nd woodwinds (piccolo, english horn, bass clarinet and contrabassoon) but wasn't sure to use the "a3" unison instruments

    - it's a lot less expensive than the full Woodwind library, which I couldn't afford

    Ok, I agree that I've already replaced this library with the respective Single Instruments, however, I now have a lot of additional articulations and will be able to purchase the extended libraries with an upgrade discount. And the articulations were good enough for everyday film music (I don't plan to compose a clarinet conerto soon).

    To answer you about the software, I own the Dimension String library and Vienna Ensemble Pro but still use the non-Pro version of Vienna Instruments.

    As said before, my first VSL purchase was Vienna Ensemble Pro so I've never used any VSL libray without it.

    Vienna Instrument Pro isn't necessary for Dimension Strings. It seems very conveniant (16 patch slots, humanization, etc.) and I plan to buy it soon but you can live without it...

    ... for the moment

    Sorry, to busy for the mockup, I have to finish a music for tomorrow...
  • P
    P

    Thanks for the additional info.

    Have you ever tried to use Dimension Strings with the non-PRO version of Ensemble, or have you always used the Vienna Ensemble PRO?

    I too think the PRO version of Vienna Instruments is probably a good idea.

    I'm not sure what you mean by "fashioned-excessively-reverberated-libraries"? -- I thought that all VSL samples were recorded quite dry.

    (I don't expect a lot of takers on the Hungarian Rhapsody challenge - If you watch the Youtube clip you'll probably undrstand why! )

    Good luck with your music for tomorrow.
  • G
    G

    I've never tried Dimension Strings with the non-Pro version of Vienna Ensemble. However, my feeling is that the main difference is the possibility to use 3rd-party plugins in the Pro version : understand that the only sample player you can use is Vienna Instruments (no Kontakt, Omnisphere, etc.).

    You can give it a try by downloading the demo.


    Yes, VSL are dry, that's the reason why I love them. By "fashioned-excessively-reverberated-libraries", I meant most of the other companies who offer reverberated-to-death-libraries which sound out-of-the-box but aren't very versatile. 

    As VSL are dry (and centered) you can put instruments where you want by panning and reverberating them as you want. You can emulate a small chamber section playing in a small lounge, an orchestra playing in a huge hall or a solo trumpet played in the Great Canyon. As a film music composer, that's what I need !!!
  • P
    P

    Aha,

    You were comparing to other companies libraries, not other VSL libraries. (Sorry, I misunderstood you at first).
  • M
    M

    As others have suggested, I'd go with the Dimension Strings then add winds, brass and perc. either by buying SE sections, or buying solo instruments or collections that will give you more articulations then the SE instruments will. However, you may find that the articulations of the non string SE sections are all you really need. It all depends on the style of music you are writing. Also, you don't need to buy an entire orchestra in one go. Take your time and pick your libraries carefully.

    One thing to keep in mind with the Dimension Strings is to make sure you have a computer powerful enough to play them. If you have all of the instruments playing at once you will have a total of 24 instruments playing.

    I'm assuming that you already have some standard effects: compressor, eq, limiter, reverb etc... that you can use for the time being. If you haven't already, I'd listen to the MIRx demos. You do need VI Pro to use it, but it sounds amazing and might be an affordable way to get into MIR at a later date. You can demo them both.
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    @Another User said:

    One thing to keep in mind with the Dimension Strings is to make sure you have a computer powerful enough to play them. If you have all of the instruments playing at once you will have a total of 24 instruments playing.

    Will this do the job?...

    Processor Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-3770K CPU @ 3.50GHz 7.7
    6.6
      Determined by lowest subscore
    Memory (RAM) 8.00 GB 7.7
    Graphics Intel(R) HD Graphics 4000 6.6
    Gaming graphics 1696 MB Total available graphics memory 6.6
    Primary hard disk 20GB Free (112GB Total) 7.8
  • N
    N

    As for your computer specs, the overall answer would be, "No, it will not do."

    For SE libraries:

    Processor: ok.

    RAM: you could surivive, but 16 gigs would be better.

    Hard drive: the combination of SE 1, 1 Plus, 2, and 2 Plus will not fit in your remaining free space.  Also, you do not want to overfill traditional hard drives.  Adding an SSD would be best - say in the 480 gig range, but adding a 1 TB 7200 RPM hard drive would also be an option.  Samples take up a large amount of hard drive space, especially the full libraries.

    As for the full libraries:

    Processor, ok to start, but may become a bottleneck depending on which libraries you decide to purchase.  If you end up going the MIR 24 route, and don't get DS or DB, you will likely still be ok.  If you were to go full MIR Pro plus DS, plus several other VSL libraries, then something better could likely be helpful.

    RAM: 32 gigs would be wise, 8 gigs will not be enough, and even 16 gigs could be limiting.

    Hard drive: as above to start.  Again, SSD's are best for streaming samples, and with VSL, using an SSD allows you to conserve RAM as the initial amount of RAM that needs to be loaded for each articulation can be decreased.  If you were to go the DS route, plus other VSL libraries, then streaming from two different hard drives would be wise, meaning you would need three total.  It is generally not a good idea to stream samples from the same drive that has your o/s.  Generally, when using one computer, o/s and programs are on one drive, recording is done on a second drive, and samples reside on a third drive (and sometimes a fourth).

    I have no experience with on-board video, so can't comment.
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    @noldar12 said:

    For SE libraries:

    Processor: ok.

    RAM: you could surivive, but 16 gigs would be better.

    Hard drive: the combination of SE 1, 1 Plus, 2, and 2 Plus will not fit in your remaining free space.  Also, you do not want to overfill traditional hard drives.  Adding an SSD would be best - say in the 480 gig range, but adding a 1 TB 7200 RPM hard drive would also be an option.  Samples take up a large amount of hard drive space, especially the full libraries.

    Don't worry about the harddisk - "Windows Experience Index" only reports on the BOOT disk (which is currently a 120GB SSD) - It's not the only disk on this machine.

    I plan to rebuild this machine by moving the OS to a 7200rpm 1TB disk (This disk will have the OS and Program Files only - no samples).

    Samples will mostly be installed on a second 7200rpm disk, but there will be the option to put selected libraries (eg. Dimension Strings) on that 120GB SSD which will no longer be required as a BOOT disk and so can become a sample disk.

    I have had plans for awhile to upgrade to at least 16GB, so that will probably happen at the same time with 2 x 8Gbit sticks, so that there's 2 slots free for an upgrade to 32GB in the future.

    Cheers