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  • Pre-Sale Konzerthaus Organ: Screen shots?

    Hi,

    I'm considering the Konzerthaus Organ. Comparing with Hauptwerk. I've heard some good demos of the VSL, but my real question is the UI. How does one change registrations? Is each 'stop' simply a patch as part of a matrix as in other VSL instruments?

    I was wondering if I could trouble someone to reply with a screencap of at least one patch to give me an idea how this works.

    I can tell the VSL samples sound fabulous, but I guess what I'm trying to get at is if one can build registrations with the same flexibility. I'm trying to do some things more like Durufle and not the ubiquitous 'video game pipes of doom' or baroque filigree so getting subtle mixtures is important. The obvious advantage of the Hauptwerk is that it functions like a 'real' organ. I mean the flexibility and interactions are spot on. The downside is that you really -pay- for that. But so long as one has the dosh, you can basically get any organ sound you desire.

    So... screen caps? Or maybe I'm overthinking this?

    TIA,

    ---JC


  • The organ is exactly like other VSL instruments, not an imitation of using stops on a pipe organ so the screen shot will look exactly like any other VSLinstrument.  However every pipe was sampled individually, and many common registrations of pipes were also sampled.  So you can use those pre-existing registrations for quick normal useage, or create your own registrations and do anything that could be done on the actual instument. 

    I've played pipe organs in church and the useage of this particular organ is very practical since the Vienna Instruments and Ensemble interfaces are so convenient to use.  If I were going to set up an extremely complex organ stop-switching, I would create the stops as custom presets, in which you can have on one channel dozens of registrations.  It is actually easier to do the switching with those than with an actual organ.

    What I really like about the Konzerthaus organ is the completeness of sampling all the pipes, and how each one is perfectly looped and ends with the release samples of the actual concert hall.  So that means if you use the release samples, the organ is already in that great hall, and if you shut them off, it can be "re-installed" into any other reverb hall.


  • Thanks, that is helpful.

    I play organ @ my local parish from time to time, however, I wouldn't know how to turn the thing on if someone hadn't shown me. It's just ugly modern folk-music masquerading as choral music so no one really cares about it. When I was at school 'organists' were a world apart. I know the timbres I want, but have no idea how that translates into registrations... or the style/century of the instrument.

    If I can break it down to single -pipes- then I guess it will be fine so long as the basic timbres are what I'm after--which are more like an Arp String Ensemble :D ... I haven't studied enough yet to know what that means in pipe-speak.

    ---JC


  • I have also looked at both VSL and Hauptwerk (and played theater style organ for a time, way, way back in my past), but so far have not had the extra money to purchase either.

    The question to answer is: What are your overall goals?  VSL's organ, especially with the new VI, is most likely flexible enough in terms of custom registration, though you might have to do a bit of jury-rigging in extreme situations.  To me, the new VI favors VSL, as it would allow far for more registration flexibility than the older player, which in terms of registration, had very real limitations.

    IMO, the two products are aimed at two different markets, with Hauptwerk being geared especially for organists, and live organ playing.  Remember too, that Hauptwerk uses yet another usb dongle system.


  • Thanks. As I should've known from my college days, those organ guys are a breed apart. (I should talk. :D )

    But here's the thing about Hauptwerk. It's -so- damned much fun. I probably will choose Konzerthaus, but the other thing about HW... and I can't overstate this... since it works like a -real- organ, I think it helps one compose better by making sure that you obey the laws of physics. IOW: it forces you to learn to write idiomatically and that's a big plus in my eyes (it's probably a huge minus for most people, though.)


  •  I agree that you should write idiomatically for organ, but my point was that because each pipe is separately sampled in the VSL organ, you can do that exactly as you would in actual sounds, even if you use a different "interface" than the real organ.  The important things are the completeness and quality of sampling/recording and the quality of the instrument itself in its sound environment,  not the "Pretend Stops" of a computer interface designed to fake sitting at a pipe organ. Of course that could be implemented complete with wood grain graphics and antique lettering, but it is a waste of time in actual sounds.   


  • I understand what yer saying. If I already knew the organ I wouldn't be influenced by 'graphics' at all.  If it was an instrument I understand (like a viola) I would agree 100%. But I don't understand the organ very well. So for a guy like me who doesn't know a Bourdon from a Krumhorn or a 'mutation', there is a certain educational value.

    It's a moot point really... a Hauptwerk install equivalent to Konzerthaus would be far too expensive. Great tool, though.


  • I actually agree that the interfaces are a good idea, and maybe something VSL will do in the future?  I'm not good at registrations at all myself.  That is one of the more difficult and important things an organist has to master if he is going to become a good player and I certainly never did.  However, with all the pipes available on the Vienna Konzerthaus, it is possible to do some homework, studying the usual or unusual registrations, and then put them right there pipe by pipe into the VI setup.  AFter the intial setup you can then switch instantly between instruments. 

    One thing that is really significant about the Vienna Konzerthaus organ is that you can have any other orchestral instrument play with it, in the space, by using MIR which is  actually sampled in the same hall.  That is a huge advantage since none of the other organs out there have a similar situation. 


  • I agree with your comment re. 'space'. One problem wrt most of the organ samples I've tried (including Hauptwerk) is that they simply do not blend well with other mix instruments spatially. Which kinda makes sense... regardless of style or era you basically have to bring any other 'players' into the organ's house. And that's no mean feat.

    Another problem with 'blending'... which I find fascinating... and this may just be -me-... is that the organ has a -much- wider dynamic range than 'the orchestra'. Human beings have to -work- to play super-quiet. My contention is that 'ppp' in an orchestra is about 3xs louder than an organ 'ppp'. A solo flute will -never- play as quiet as an organ can unless ordered to directly and even then it will be uncomfortable for them. Organists routinely play 'subliminal' stuff... registrations so quiet nobody else can hear. I've got lots of French music where you literally have to crank the volume in quiet passages to hear what's going on--the recording gear just can't handle the enormous swings.

    Getting a handle on the registrations matters to me a lot. I want to be able to blend with other instruments properly... without depending on a DAW fader.


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    @Suntower said:

    [...] Organists routinely play 'subliminal' stuff... registrations so quiet nobody else can hear. I've got lots of French music where you literally have to crank the volume in quiet passages to hear what's going on--the recording gear just can't handle the enormous swings. [...]

    You're telling me! ;-D

    Dealing with that noise was actually the most challenging aspect during the creation of the Vienna Konzerthaus Organ library. The main problem is that noise will build up to insane amounts when stacking multiple layers (i.e. ranks) of samples from individual pipes, so we had to take all kinds of measures to get rid of it.

    Kind regards,


    /Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
  • No one should never be disturbed about the difficulties of registrations, because this is where the great organists really ascend to a masterful level.  So it is actually one of the hardest and most subtle aspects of playing the instrument.   Which I of course avoided.

    One thing about noise levels I remember is how the pipe organ in the church behind the house I used to live in had huge amounts of air noise, and if you ever tried to stack too many pipes into one registration, it would simply stop and make a horrible whining noise like a half-dead goat.  So no matter what difficulties Dietz mentions,  we don't have to deal with that.


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    @Suntower said:

    Hi,

    I'm considering the Konzerthaus Organ. Comparing with Hauptwerk. I've heard some good demos of the VSL, but my real question is the UI. How does one change registrations? Is each 'stop' simply a patch as part of a matrix as in other VSL instruments?

    I was wondering if I could trouble someone to reply with a screencap of at least one patch to give me an idea how this works.

    Hi Suntower

    A lot is said about the Konzerthaus Organ

    Nevertheless here are two links in addition:

    http://www.beat-kaufmann.com/vitutorials/vi-tips--tricks-3/index.php ( No. 22) about how to play the Organ (possibilities)

    and

    http://www.beat-kaufmann.com/vitutorials/konzerthaus-organ/index.php

    Further:

    If you switch of the release sample you get a nearly dry organ. And as we are used to with the other samples of VSL: The room you will chose for the organ can turn it into so much different organs as you have rooms for it. Brilliant!

    That means: Within smaller roomes you seem to have a smaller Organ... within large rooms you get a gigantic organ.

    Nevertheless: Even if you can mix all the stops and even if you have very "soft" stops the Konzerthaus Organ isn't a Silbermann Baroque Organ - it is a Rieger Organ.

    So having a Silberman and the Konzerthaus on hand would probably be  the best solution 😉

    (I know this last sentence isn't very helpful, sorry)

    Beat


    - Tips & Tricks while using Samples of VSL.. see at: https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/vitutorials/ - Tutorial "Mixing an Orchestra": https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/mixing-an-orchestra/
  • Thank you very much. That is exactly the kind of information I was looking for.

    BTW: Apropos of nothing, that Swiss National Anthem is pretty fun.

    Best,

    ---JC


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    @Another User said:

    ...that Swiss National Anthem is pretty fun.

    We have currently a competition running here in Switzerland for a "New National Anthem".

    As you can imagine I'm doing the race as well. VSL's samples will help me of course.

    But the real difficulty isn't the music, no it's the text - No help so far from samples... 😉

    Beat


    - Tips & Tricks while using Samples of VSL.. see at: https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/vitutorials/ - Tutorial "Mixing an Orchestra": https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/mixing-an-orchestra/
  • It is very difficult to make a great tune for lyrics that aren't very good. I have had the misfortune of moving from one country (Ireland) to another country (USA) with two of the worst national anthem texts in the history of national anthems. So I understand your dilemma.

    I'm amazed that your country is even considering making a change. Most knowledgable people agree that the American national anthem stinks, but it is such a tradition no one would seriously consider making a change. Tradition is a stronger force than good taste. :D

    Best of luck.


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    Hi Suntower

    I don't want to turn this thread into a National-Anthem-Thread. Nevertheless some more infos.

    Most of the people like the melody here in Switzerland.

    But the text is a prayer from the 18th century and it has nothing to do with Switzerland aside from the fact that God appears in the rosy dawn in the swiss alps...

    Now most of the people can't sing more than the first 5 lines of the first verse...

    The contest tasks are: Find a new and more modern text with a similar melody of the current national anthem...

    About national anthems and their texts: It always seems to be a matter of the point of view...

    In our eyes a "very special text" for example has the mexican national anthem.

    But for the people there it must be THE text. Children are obviously singing it for beginning their school day - and this with enthusiasm.

    Spain for example just has the music but no text. They also had a contest but the winner wasn't accepted by the crowd.

    Maybe that the probaly best and the most neutral text is "no text" [;)]

    So every nation has its own ways of behaving...

    All the best

    Beat


    - Tips & Tricks while using Samples of VSL.. see at: https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/vitutorials/ - Tutorial "Mixing an Orchestra": https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/mixing-an-orchestra/
  • I was wrong. The Mexican text is far worse. [;)]

    Thanks again,

    ---JC