MIR Venue/Mic Suggestions, Based on Live Orchestra Recording

[Pyre]

Hi everyone,

Bit of a strange one, I'm not sure if this post belongs here or in the compositions forum, but...

I'm working on a project that mixes an orchestra with a Heavy Metal band. That means a great deal of the frequency spectrum is taken up by loud drums and distorted guitars, so mixing it all so the orchestra can still be heard is quite a task. I managed to get it sounding pretty good using just VI and VE, with the built-in VI reverb, but have now upgraded to VI Pro, VE Pro and MIR. While MIR sounds fantastic, I can't get the mix as clear as before, because the reverbs I'm using are so much bigger, or the wet signal is higher in the mix, or the reverb tone is different, or... something!

So I was wondering if anyone would be so kind as to listen to the track linked below (this is the kind of sound I'm aiming for, I think it was the London Philharmonic recorded at Abbey Road), and suggest a suitable MIR venue/mic setup to mimic it? I'd be running just the orchestra through MIR, not guitars and and drums etc, but I need to get the reverb right - so it adds depth and a 'lush' character, but without making it muddy.

-----> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uN3yqMr3ffY <>

Thanks so much for your help.

Pyre

[Dietz]

Ha! Nightwish! I've seen them live about two years ago (actually my sons wanted to see them ;-) ...), but sadly they omitted almost all orchestral elements from their live-show.

... but back on topic: I would definitely choose Teldex Studio Berlin (Control Room View). The "Teldex Mic 1 - Typical Setup"-Venue Preset could be a great starting-point. Bring down the reverb time a bit (maybe to 1.0 to 1.2 seconds for starters); set the Global Dry/Wet-offset to about -30 (all Icons will now produce a drier sound by default). Use the Room EQ to reduce the bass- and especially the low-mids, and maybe reduce the range between 2 and 4 kHz a bit (you will need that space for the guitars).

Most importantly: Once you have set up a nice orchestral balance, look at the whole orchestra as "just another instrument" within a rock-band (except obvious solo instruments). I've done literally dozens of hybrid rock / pop / electronica productions featuring full-blown orchestras (or at least large string sections), and by using this approach I always succeeded. If the orchestra needs more treble than usual to cut through - do it! If you need compression for better perceptibility - use it! And don't forget thet much of the interaction between "band" and "orchestra" comes from clever use of bus-compression.

... hope that gets you started,

[Pyre]

Dietz, thank you so much, I've been trying this out this evening and it sounds amazing!

I had feared that turning down the reverb time and wet/dry balance would make the sound smaller and less 'epic' - in fact it has completely the opposite effect, and really does sound like a film soundtrack. It sounds like it's kept the size and depth, but added so much more clarity, I can hear instrumental parts I had forgotten were there. And I think I can safely turn the orchestra volume up quite a bit louder without swamping the mix. I'll certainly be carrying on like this.

How much bass and low mid would you suggest cutting? More than the venue preset does already? And what frequencies would be classed in those ranges? My experience with mixing isn't too bad with my ears, but I'm out of my depth as soon as frequencies or compression comes up! I'll have to talk to some people about bus-compression, that sounds promising but confusing...

I adore Nightwish, though I too wish their live show had more orchestral focus, instead of just playing the backing track from the album recording. I shall absolutely bear in mind your advice on mixing the orchestra in with the track, sounds like a good way forward when I get to that stage.

Thank you very much for your help with this, I would have been a bit stuck without it.

Pyre

[Dietz]

Hi Pyre,

glad to hear that my suggestions were helpful. :-)

As a rule of thumb, I always try to stick to the proverbial " As much as needed, as little as possible", when it comes to room and reverb. There are no recipes, and what fits perfectly in one case could be too dry or too wet in another. You _have_ to re-invent the wheel each time, to a certain degree.

The same is true for EQ- and compression settings. It's beyond the scope of a little forum message to go into details, but in your case I would look closely at the ranges below 80 Hz (bass) and below 300 Hz (low mids), maybe even up to 400 (where the guitars have their "meat").

(Sidenote: If you need a good primer, you should consider to buy the book "Mixing Audio: Concepts, Practices and Tools" by Roey Izhaki. Without getting too technical, this is a great (and actually quite comprehensive) hands-on guide for mixing music. My students like it. :-) )

Kind regards,