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Yes, such extensive tweaking sets VI Pro in a league of its own. And I've never experienced anything like the Dimension Violins.
Then again, I think you shouldn't have to go under the hood to get a slow legato or a fast portamento. Such vital articulations should be available right out of the box. And this comes from a young person who is very keen on fiddling about with software (pun intended).
Anyway congrats on a visionary library, keep up the excellent work!
For fast legato try out performance trill patches.
For faster portamento I recommend to check out the legato patches and trying out the various sul (force) variations.
Very flexible and realistic results can be achieved using different articulation within a instrument section, IMO much better results are possible compared to stretched samples.
best
Herb
Thanks for your input Herb. I did find sul G legatos efficient (and beautifully warm) in the lower registers.
On higher registers though, especially with small intervals, I was only ever able to achieve a slower transition using stretched samples.
I have fast legatos covered with perf trills indeed!
Best
9u10m, to some extent, I would not agree with you. There are cases/situations where composers call for slides/portamentos. There are other cases where they naturally will occur: when shifting on the same string while executing a slur with the bow (a slide will not happen if the notes are played in the same position). However, in a majority of cases, having that "slide" between notes tends to represent sloppy playing, and a good player will normally make sure those slides are not heard.
Particularly when changing bow direction, if a slide is heard, the player is shifting while finishing the old bow stroke, something that generally represents poor bowing technique (note: I have been a bass player for a number of decades). Normally, a shift is done to coincide with the new bow stroke, and is completed before the next note is fully sounding. Even in long legato lines, many of the shifts will remain relatively clean. Interestingly, thinking back to another company's library and another forum, one of the ways that one could tell that a mock-up was indeed a mock-up was when the person placed portamentos where they would normally not occur.
I think all some are asking for here are more legato transition times (without having to do the work themselves with time-stretching). The lack of a variable legato speed transition (which is a staple in LASS, to name another library), is missing from all VSL string libraries. There are only 2 speeds in VSL legato -- regular and port. I was hoping this would have been corrected/added with the new Dimension Strings. Unfortunately, Vienna Instruments Pro software does not have a variable "speed" knob, controllable by MIDI CC, as VSL's time-stretching method can't be calculated on the fly, or easily accessed as in LASS and some other libraries. That said, I've gone ahead and have created various presets with different cells with timestretching and am very happy with the results. But, it's a lot of work, and it would be nice if VSL gave us these different legato speed presets in their default sets, since user-created presets, over time, can get lost, etc.
As a non string player I have enjoyed this thread and particularly noldarts post. Here's another question:
What does the "start" controller do to the interval. There are two settings and the a slider. Do they truncate part of the interval? The front part or the back part? What is the difference between the two settings (found in advance patch settings of vi pro)?
I raised the issue of legatos as soon as I bought Dimension strings, but the response was not terribly accomodating.
As a result I have rarely used them, especially for legatos. For me the legatos are not 'legato' enough, certainly much less so than the Apassionatas. I here very little transition between notes, just a new note starting, which doesn't deliver the right impression when trying to write expressive passages. Subtlety is sometimes a good thing, but often a phrase needs a more pronounced legato feel.
The staccatos and short articulations are great, and I have used them for that purpose, but I second any motion to try and improve the legato/portamento performance on offer - however it's delivered.
@Trailerman said:
For me the legatos are not 'legato' enough, certainly much less so than the Apassionatas. I here very little transition between notes, just a new note starting, which doesn't deliver the right impression when trying to write expressive passages
I agree with that. In fact, I would go further. I think that the legatos need to be re-edited, because I don't think that they are of the same quality as the rest of VSL String libraries. I don't want to hear holes between start and destination notes, and lumpy transitions. Fix those, and then let's talk about whether or not there should be Presets for different speeds of Portamento.
DG
@DG said:
I agree with that. In fact, I would go further. I think that the legatos need to be re-edited, because I don't think that they are of the same quality as the rest of VSL String libraries.
Interesting, because for me the DS legatos work better than any other string collection we have produced.
best
Herb
@strytten said:
What does the "start" controller do to the interval. There are two settings and the a slider. Do they truncate part of the interval? The front part or the back part?
Yes, you can shorten the start of the interval moving sample start point up to 50 MS into the interval samples.
Further length of the fade in into the interval samples can be adjusted. (Both setting are available in the Advanced Tab of VI PRO).
With the "Start" controller you simply scale the amount of these settings. Set to 0, nothing is altered, set to 127 exacxtly the settings applied in the advance tab will be performed.
best
Herb
We care about and respect your thoughts, Herb. It's the dismissive aspect of your answer that I personally feel less comfortable with.
This thread is now 2 pages long, it seems many customers are asking for more flexibility regarding the portamento articulation.
Your honest opinion is one thing, VSL trusting us to help improve some of its products is another. 'Please look into it' is all we're asking, and I think it's legitimate.
I for one like the legato as it is in Dimension Violins by the way. I think it sounds very natural, especially in conjunction with other perf articulations like pLeV and rPo. I only wish we had more options with it length-wise, without resorting to time consuming tweaking. Then again, the lack of freedom with portamento is the more important issue in my opinion.
Thank you :)
Best
@9u10m said:
We care about and respect your thoughts, Herb. It's the dismissive aspect of your answer that I personally feel less comfortable with.
This thread is now 2 pages long, it seems many customers are asking for more flexibility regarding the portamento articulation.
Your honest opinion is one thing, VSL trusting us to help improve some of its products is another. 'Please look into it' is all we're asking, and I think it's legitimate.
I for one like the legato as it is in Dimension Violins by the way. I think it sounds very natural, especially in conjunction with other perf articulations like pLeV and rPo. I only wish we had more options with it length-wise, without resorting to time consuming tweaking. Then again, the lack of freedom with portamento is the more important issue in my opinion.
Thank you 😊
Best
I think you misunderstood. Herb was responding to my (and Jules') comments. I don't think he was dismissing any of the previous comments. Certainly having been a member of this forum for 9 years, I have never seen him dismiss any comments, without careful thought and explanation.
However, the Portamento issue may be the most important thing to you, but it is a non-issue to me. In fact I dare say that in the time it has taken you to post about it, I could have already created all the different Presets that I need. [;)]
Regarding length of transition for legato, I think that there are a few misunderstandings. This idea about different speeds of transition is mostly related to sample use and technology. It has very little to do with String playing. There is no such thing as a slow transition, unless the players are not playing together. What happens in real life, is that there is usually a dip down in volume when the note changes, due to the fact that many players use a kind of portato bowing when they change note, rather than a real slur. Therefore, the transition seems slower, when in fact it's just softer for a few milliseconds. If you want this sort of legato, just dip the Velocity xFade down as you change note, and the result will be the same. You will also find that as the notes change, the vibrato will stop and start again, so this also needs to be taken care of, in order to get the feeling of a slower transition. This last point is not valid with fast playing, because there will be no vibrato anyway.
I hope that this helps.
DG
@DG said:
I agree with that. In fact, I would go further. I think that the legatos need to be re-edited, because I don't think that they are of the same quality as the rest of VSL String libraries.
Interesting, because for me the DS legatos work better than any other string collection we have produced.
best
Herb
I can see that this is a subject for discussion the next time I am in Vienna. [;)]
DG
I am puzzled by this thread.
Having used all the string libraries, Solo, Chamber, Orchestral, Appassionata and now Dimension, I recently did one of the most extreme examples in film music of legato strings - Vertigo's Scene d'amour. This is the greatest string writing ever done for a movie. And it features violin legato more than any other musical articulation.
Using the Dimension Violins on this was simply FABULOUS! I absolutely loved the legato sound of the violins - it was molto espressivo and very connected, fluid, beautiful, and the complexity of slightly mistimed transitions added to the realism to an uncanny degree. And this is in comparison to ALL the other string libraries.
Also, I had programmed the Grieg "Last Spring" for the Appassionata/Orchestral strings, and then reprogrammed it recently for the Dimension violins. They sound as good or better in legato.
True, Appassionata has some more extreme portamento, mainly because it is a huge sweeping fluid sound of twenty players on one note. Also, if more samples/programming tweaks are added that is always good. But I simply never heard any problem with legato, and in fact think it is amazingly beautiful in the Dimension violins.
