Bill,

Thanks, I'm also a fan of N3, ...4

So,

I really hope that this project will serve Professional with professional tool !

Just an example : «independent Time Signature» was present as feature in N2 !

They have removed this because it was mixing up some users !!!!

Notion could be one of the best composer (writer) of music tool...

Hope Steinberg project will consider the best for professional !

Will be interesting to follow that !

Thanks

Alain

If VSL were to decide to go in such a direction, they would undoubtedly do it very well.

But, to once again raise some key issues (different from the market size one):

To ask a pointed practical question or two: For VSL to create such a thing, what sort of additional staffing would be required?  Every new project requires employee resources, and starting a notation program from scratch would likely require considerable employee resources.  How would that additional staffing impact cash flow?  Since any revenue stream from a new notation program would not begin for some time, does the existing VSL revenue stream/cash flow allow for such an expansion without hurting the company?  Side note: bankruptcy often traces to too rapid over expansion.

Obviously I do not expect VSL to post anything at all to this (questions raised deal with proprietary information), but I raise the questions simply to indicate that wishing for VSL to do product "X" is by no means as simple as it sounds.  Note: one of the real positives IMO regarding VSL is they do seem to have a long-term vision: witness the now reached long-term goal of creating MIR, and now MIR Pro, for example.  As customers, we can certainly express desired wishes, but OTOH we must also realize that in terms of an overall business plan, VSL has clear reasons for doing what they do, as well as not doing what they choose not to do.

Wisdom would likely be to follow the Cubase situation and see what develops there over the next couple of years.  Here's another thought: If Steinberg succeeds in creating a fully integrated DAW/notation program, for VSL to seek to be a new player in that field in potentially the same time frame, the net result could be real iffy for VSL.

Again, there simply are many factors for a company to consider when customers are asking that company to branch out in a new direction.

noldar12 makes some good points.  I don't think it would be a winning proposition for VSL to develop a notation program.  Rather it would be smart to "team up" with maybe the new Steinberg developers to come up with something that integrates seamlessly with VSL.  That way the companies' investments in the products that undoubtedly have different markets are better placed.  Think of how many non-VSL users might be interested in a Steinberg notation software (assuming it's a competitive product with the current players).  Likewise think of how many VSL users who could care less about a notation product.  

I share this dream..  I don't know if it will be a reality, but if one goes back to announcements Herb made when VSL first began a large scale plan was outlined that seemed to imply that such a thing would be part of it..  

Imagine a notation software that can pre render a midi map prior to play back that makes full and accurate use of such things as the extensive dynamic samples from the full libraries..  Write a hair pin that the software will interpret to select the correct length of crescendo or descrescendo sample and then further tailor it with time stretching to fit the music..  and this is just one possibility of many.

Personally I expect very little from the notation capabilities of Steinberg, Cakewalk and the like..   especially for any real professional use.  Quite frankly I find Sibelius too limited to handle many musical situations..

With all its flaws if anything ever happened to Finale I feel we'd be in some dire straights unless something else stepped in to fill the void..

jc5, for better or worse, what you have outlined provides the reason why many work first in a notation program and then import the notation file into a sequencer.  Each type of program does some things very well and other things not so well.

OTOH, Steinberg could come up with something, and in terms of notation, even now they are far ahead of Sonar.  While I still use Sonar, Sonar has not updated their notation in over a decade, and it cannot even correctly notate some very basic notation requirements (like triplets).

As for writing a "hair pin", how would the software interpret that?  Perhaps the composer wants to use velocity x-fade, or perhaps a straight expression pedal increase (cc 11), depending on instrument and/or desired sound, or even a mix of both.  Depending on the passage it might be a short crescendo going from pp < ff or a long crescendo going just from mp < f, etc., etc., etc.  Each one will likely be very different.  IMO, there really is no way around detailed editing to get the desired effect.

@Suntower said:

Within a few years, I doubt there will be more than a few commercial 'composers' who even read music well enough to prepare a traditional score. Sample-based DAW productions will be the normal end product and when/if 'real' players are required, one will simply hire a new breed of 'MIDI Copyists' to create an approximation in notation.And slowly, the whole concept of 'orchestration' will die because no one will give a 2nd thought to what is actually playable... Sort of like that guy Conlon Nancarrow and his Music For Player Pianos.

As a result, these MIDI Copyists will be well paid and people will guard referrals -very- carefully because they will be expected to translate DAW/MIDI renderings that will often contain -many- unplayable passages. And eventually? As samples get even better and the translations to notation become ever more disappointing, the whole idea of translating -anything- generated in a DAW to notation will be dropped.

---JC

This is already the norm for feature films.. You get the MIDI transfer guy (or gal) and the orchestrator, and these may or may not be the same person, depending on what country (and of course budget). Orchestration is no longer what it used to be; it is now more a case of "make it sound the same as the demo, only better". Of course the sang is that many film composers don't think about how many players they have whilst they are plunking down pads and layering countless lines over the top, so there have been many times where a composer will say "I had to add a bit of the samples in, because the players couldn't really get the sound I wanted", not realising that it was not the players' fault, but their own, in not writing for players instead of  a computer.

DG

Yeah, I figured... my main point is that 'notation' is kinda like real 'printing'... it's soon going to be something that people have done for vanity reasons (like expensive invitations to weddings with raised printing.) People will pull out a 'real' orchestra just for TV shows to look cool... just as today, I get asked to bring a 'vintage' archtop guitar or double bass to fit the 'ambience' of a particular show.

I totally want what the O/P 'dreams' of. Just never gonna happen. The market has spoken. And listening to most movie scores these days I gotta say, it made a poor decision. :D

Suntower, you raise some interesting points.

If things continue going in the same direction as they are now, eventually, who would even be able to play an instrument well enough to creeate the high quality samples?  As samples/midi continue to garner a greater share of business, what will be the incentive to learn to play an instrument well?  It is not as though the symphonic concert world is in that great shape either.

I could see a type of "vicious circle" resulting.  As orchestration skills decline, there is less need for "real players" and as the ability of "real players" declines, there is less reason to orchestrate for them.

Anyway, just a couple of thoughts.

 I've written a number of thorny posts here since I bought a VSL lib simply because I believe that as the link between MIDI/notation and samples becomes more tenuous the -quality- of music is declining... or at least morphing into something quite 'non-orchestral'.

I can count on the fingers of one hand recent movie scores where I can tell the guy knows how a violin really works... Rarely does one hear even the basic double stops or other idiomatic devices Beethoven or Hindemith would use intuitively---because they knew how to fiddle.

(Last score that really knocked me out? 'The Artist'... the guy just -channeled- Ravel and Jazz Age Orchestra. It's really -amazing- but no one notices it because of all the 'silent movie' thing.)

My point is that I can almost always tell a guy who's roots are in DAW... or a rocker turned 'composer' because the music is simply not 'genuine'. It always sounds truly unnatural to me because it sounds like what it is---a rich kid who hired an orchestra. I mean... back in the day, you didn't even get your music played by a lotta guys without having some -chops-.You just wouldn't hear a full orchestral rendering of anything that didn't have at least a basic level of harmony/counterpoint/etc. The effect of hearing 40 violins playing a bunch of trivial lines... as in most video games... is disconcerting for me because it wouldn't happen in real life if you take my meaning.

I'm sure that sounds insufferably elitist, but my point is that VSL is itself changing -music- into something quite different. I bought into it for one purpose (mock up) but really its market is quite something else. Not being judgmental, just telling you how I see it... and why 'the dream' will never happen.

---JC

Those are some pretty dire predictions but I do see your point.  It does seem to be the way music is going at least in the film industry.  However one huge "lobbying" group that would try to prevent this is the educational system both primary and secondary.  Think of all the music professors who have to justify their existence and what such an upheaval would cause. 

I do realize academia and the marketplace are two different and often at odds with one another.

After watching the artist videos on the homepage I concede you're right, however I think this really only applies to film and TV music.  So I guess the reason that industry would dictate such a shift in the way people work is 1) lack of traditional music education for most modern composers or 2) modern composers aspire to only be film/tv composers?

My first film score I had to use real players because there was no such thing as MIDI, or at least it hadn't gotten to me - Dave Smith was working on it still?   1985.  [:O]

"My first film score I had to use real players because there was no such thing as MIDI..."

...You poor man.

---JC

I don't believe MIDI or samples are the problem really.  I often wish I had access to today's technology when I was a college music student.  I almost blame the producers in a way in the sense that they seem to demand a life-like rendering of what the music will sound like.  If that weren't the requirement perhaps more composers and orchestrators would work in notation software to begin with if the final is to be done with live players.

@Suntower said:

"My first film score I had to use real players because there was no such thing as MIDI..."

...You poor man.

---JC

 That's a good one!  I didn't mean that the way it sounded.  On the other hand, if you heard those players you might put it that way too!

Watching those 'artist videos', one can really see some bitterness. They're being made part of a 'team' as opposed to being 'the composer'. I personally think it's made for a dreadful reduction in the quality of film music. But films are one of the few places where one can hope to get anything approaching notated/orchestral music played by real people---and get paid.

Money aside, it's ridiculously hard to get pieces played by -any- real people. From high school to local orchestra to -whatever-. Just doesn't happen.

Every generation rebels agains the previous,. but ours is the first that has decided that 'art is whatever I say it is' (Witness "William"s statement equating Trent Reznor with John Williams with 'any composer who ever lived'.) If people think NIN is great art? Well, then it's great art. I personally could not agree less. I personally cannot imagine John Williams thinks of his work as being even in the same ballpark as Schubert or Stravinsky or Mozart. But if people think an Andy Warhol painting sells for 50m... and a Van Gogh sells for 50m? I guess they're the same artistic value. NOT.

In my area, many schools don't even -have- an orchestra. They have a -band-,... for the sports teams... but not an -orchestra-. So the pipeline will dry up unless more asians immigrate. :D (That's no joke. Go to a high school orchestra concert in America nowadays? It's like the NBA... except with asian kids.)

Notated music may be a dodo, but I would submit that, overall, having the skill helps with the overall quality. In -general- I find the scores of Danny Elfman (well, the 1st 10 years or so) MUCH more interesting as music than those of less 'traditional' composers. What I think tends to happen to everyone is that, as McLuhan warns, the medium becomes the message. Everyone using the same tools and subject to the same committees start creating stuff that sounds much the same. Plus, we all get old and boring unless we're extremely careful. :D

'Classical' music died for most people in the Great Depression. It just reached a limit. The 'legends' were beat up from the wars and they made deeply unhappy, complicated music that is just not big fun to listen to.

When I went to school, I was astounded by how DREADFUL was the music composed by my teachers. They were so disconnected from any real 'audience'... it was like talking to a priest today about life back when Jesus walked. They never expect anything miraculous (like actually getting played) to happen in their own time. Even Stravinsky... who was still alive... was just a 'legend'.

People flock to Glass or Adams now because, frankly, it's about the level of complexity they can cope with. It's repetitious and dull, but like Warhol, you can feel smart for liking it... because it's IRONIC. It doesn't surprise me how well that crap fits into a lot of movie scores.

But going back to "Willam"s comment, people really think that Trent Reznor = John Williams = Schubert. They -really- think that it's all at the same level of 'artistic expression.' And if that's the case? If you really believe people can make art as cool as Mozart with an Akai MPC... why on -earth- would -anyone- in their right mind take 10,000 hrs to learn to read/write/play concert music?

---JC