Conventional orchestral practice

[William]

Something that was alluded to on another thread by JBM was very interesting: the fact that composers using samples are always using them as a mirror of normal orchestras. Of course when a conventional orchestra is being imitated, as in a film score perhaps, that is understandeable. But the art of using samples, if there is one, has absolutely no need to emulate the balances or numbers or makeup of the orchestra. Like having twenty flute parts along with seven bass drums and a viola section, or huge numbers of brass that could never be assembled in real life, etc. This could easily be as natural a part of sampled music as a normal orchestra, and yet everyone without thinking always just does the same old conventional approaches to assembling the orchestral forces.

When ones looks at how certain composers such as Varese or Messeien or Bernard Herrmann created completely unconventional ensembles without the ease or practicality of sampled sounds, this becomes even more noticeable. I think it is time composers did more defying of conventional practice to create new sonorities based upon previously impossible combinations.

[jbm]

William,

Obviously, I'm with you on this one! In fact, I think I might steal that ensemble - 20 flutes, 7 bass drums, and viola section!? Genius! [[;)]]

I'm fighting tooth and nail to get my MaxMSP patch for sample seleciton working. Once that's going, I'll be putting more time toward compostion again. I'm actually not minding the thinking space, though... Much is stirring about in my head for what I might do with all these crazy samples, when (if???) I finally get a system going that doesn't make me absolutely insane.

J.

[Dietz]

@William said:

[...] But the art of using samples, if there is one, has absolutely no need to emulate the balances or numbers or makeup of the orchestra. [...] I think it is time composers did more defying of conventional practice to create new sonorities based upon previously impossible combinations.

This is so true that I have to repaet the bottom line:

Create new sonorities based upon previously impossible combinations.

I'm eagerly waiting for the new breed of orchestral punk! [6]

Thanks, William.

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library

[dpcon]

Williams point (which should be obvious but perhaps isn't) is very true. The reason it escapes most of us is that we have been on a path toward working with conventional orchestras. To speak well with a symphony orchestras is no small endeavor of study. To write well to picture perhaps even more difficult. To do so in the context of large sums of money spent and careers on the line even more daunting. These factors produce a mindset (in many) that think of nothing but the conventional orchestra and thus we miss the forest for the trees. It need not be so.

Herb's stated motivation in creating VSL was to remove the limitations on the composer working with samples. This has resulted in an effort to emulate the orchestra even more perfectly, hence increasing the focus upon the conventional rather than the unconventional or even radical. New inventions however always fall into the hands of those not interested in convention but rather expression that makes use of any available tool in whatever way. This is always healthy because new forms and colors are created reinvigorating and cross pollinating older art forms.

Williams point is very well taken and even visionary. The most original and unique sounding music in centuries may be the result of the application of this principle.

Dave Connor

[Rob Elliott]

If I may offer my $.02. I own the complete Pro, Distorted Guitar, Glass and Stones and love them - but we must always remember...

"It's the witch and not the wand". While these are incredible wands, er, samples, we should always look at them as tools to pave new ground with (sorry for all the metaphors, but I think you catch my drift....)

My goal is to not duplicate that freak genius J. Williams but what would really be cool if some day he actually told me - "I would have never thought to have done that.....very nice" Now that would be grand indeed!

Rob

[plowman]

One sonority that is immediately possible is the use of forte against pianissimo -- combinations that are acoustically inaudible, but easily within our electronic power with the right settings.

In other words, we may intentionally produce a false balance and discover new sonorities in the process. Forte brass *beneath* a pianissimo flute. Thundering timpani *within* a glass harmonica. Bells up horns *around* a whispering tremolo cello.

I imagine the challenge would be to make it sound like a self-existing sonority and not a horrible orchestral decision.