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  4. Duplicate the same instrument three times...

  • Duplicate the same instrument three times...

    V
    V

    Hello everyone!

    Is there a real limitation with the technique to use the same sampled instrument (with the mod wheel and semi tone tricks )for a second one AND a  third one : making a flute 2 and flute 3 with the flute 1,  ect...  ?

    Because when you think about it,  it shouldn't be a problem...  Is this technique working like if it was three differents players who where playing the lines?  Because it's not the same sample used...

    I need three instruments to play the differents lines and can't use always the ensemble patches because some times two lines play a couples of notes in unison while the third one is doing something different...

    I don't need to duplicate ALL the instruments three times for each one.  For the majority,  I just need to duplicates 2 times. 

    Examples : Flute 1 + Flute 1(2) + Alto flute,  or Piccolo

                      Clarinet 1 + Clarinet 1(2) + Bass Clarinet + Eb Clarinet

                      Oboe 1 + Oboe 1(2) + English Horn

    ect...  But there are instruments I don't have any replacement,  like the trumpets...  I only have the trumpet C and canno't buy the Trumpet B right now.  So this is why for some exceptions I would need to duplicate the intrument three times... 

    Do you think it should work great?

    Thank you very much for your time!

    Vincent
  • Beat KaufmannB
    Beat KaufmannB
    last edited
    last edited

    Hello Vincent

    @Another User said:

    Examples : Flute 1 + Flute 1(2) + Alto flute,  or Piccolo

                      Clarinet 1 + Clarinet 1(2) + Bass Clarinet + Eb Clarinet

                      Oboe 1 + Oboe 1(2) + English Horn

    When no second and suitable instrument is around: That's the way we play music here...

    Best

    Beat

    - Tips & Tricks while using Samples of VSL.. see at: https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/vitutorials/ - Tutorial "Mixing an Orchestra": https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/mixing-an-orchestra/
  • W
    W

    There is no problem with doing many tricks to get a second or third instrument.  On clarinet, this has been necessary becaus full orchestral performances almost always have a second clarinet.  Simply transpose the part, pitch shift in the opposite direction and presto, you have the 2nd clarinet.  Also, the tone is slightly different because of the pitch shift, which I actually like as a slight change in timbre. 

    This is particuarly noticeable with the solo violin.  I actually like the transposed/pitch shifted violin better than the straight one, which is rather intense vibrato.  So when you use the pitch shifted one, it is just a little bit "tamed" in vibrato.  By the way, you should try to pitch shift DOWN and not up.  Because going up tends to make everything a little nervous sounding.  Whereas going down is o.k. for even a minor third.  

    Another thing you can do regularly is to use ensemble sounds for a second part, and solo for a first.  Which is a distortion in numbers, but in an orchestral context always sounds good.  And then you could even go Richard Strauss and have four for each of the woodwinds. 

    Another thing - solos do sound correct when layered for an ensemble with woodwinds.  They are totally indistinguishable from the actual ensemble recordings.    This is part of the reason why VSL decided not to do "Dimension Woodwinds" - the samples can create varous ensembles successfully because of the natural resonances of combining two solos.   Of course if you get into a lot of combinations, that won't apply.  But I did recently a concert band piece that uses massive amounts of woodwinds.  Representing what a concert band usually has which is 12 Bflat clarinets,  5 flutes, etc.  You can do this because of the layering effects obtainable with the particular VSL woodwind samples available.

    Yet another thing - on solo trumpets, with the various articulations that are available another thing you can do is use ALTERNATE  articulations.  This can involved - depending on the musical line - short portato instead of staccato, or something I often do the vibrato solo horn sustain/legato against the solo horn non vibrato sustain/legato.  Again - there you have two horns with slightly different playing styles simply by selecting different articulations of the SAME SAMPLED INSTRUMENT.  In an orchestral context, the fact they come from the same player means nothing.  They sound totally different.
  • Cyril BlancC
    Cyril BlancC

    Hi William 

    Are you inverting the phase of the second instrument ?
  • N
    N

    Another trick you can try when using the same flute for both parts - if you are using some flavor of MIR or Vienna Suite (though this could be done in whatever software you are using) would be to use differernt sound profile presets for each instrument, for example Flute 1: pure, flute 2: warm.  That could also help differentiate between the two instruments.
  • W
    W
    last edited
    last edited

    @Cyril said:

    Hi William 

    Are you inverting the phase of the second instrument ?

     

    No as long as the notes are different samples it isn't necessary. 

  • V
    V

    Wow...   [:D]

    Thank you very much everyone for all this information ( William  [:D] ) [;)]
  • Beat KaufmannB
    Beat KaufmannB
    last edited
    last edited

    Hello Vincent

    @William said:

    There is no problem with doing many tricks to get a second or third instrument.  On clarinet, this has been necessary becaus full orchestral performances almost always have a second clarinet.  Simply transpose the part, pitch shift in the opposite direction and presto, you have the 2nd clarinet.  Also, the tone is slightly different because of the pitch shift, which I actually like as a slight change in timbre. 

    William made a very good suggestion for getting a different sound for two (or more) instruments. Because the full libraries are sampled in half tone steps you can transpose the voices two half tones down and two half tones up in midi and compensate it with the pitch of the VI-Player. How to do it? >>> have a look here.

    An other advantage you have with this system: You are able to play unison this way (same tone with another sample).

    Nevertheless: Within large orchestra arrangements I don't use this possibility because the effect of two different sounds isn't worth the additional work (my opinion).

    More important is then to place the two instruments not at the same place on the virtual stage...( different panning)

    Beat

    - Tips & Tricks while using Samples of VSL.. see at: https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/vitutorials/ - Tutorial "Mixing an Orchestra": https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/mixing-an-orchestra/
  • O
    O
    Sorry to bring up an old thread but I didn't want to start a new one for something related. Is there a difference between using the pitch-wheel method and using the semitone transposition function of VI to get a new instrument? So far, I created dedicated second instruments that always have "semitone: 2" selected and the midi tracks have "transposition: -2", so this happens automatically. But should I use the pitch-wheel instead. (I actually use the pitch-wheel to detune a little bit here and there to create some humanization)