"Maybe I misinterpreted this statement, I took it to mean that the scooping (or other problems) are to be expected when playing loud legato on a soprano sax. Is that not what you meant? My apologies if I misunderstood you"

you did misunderstand me...thanks for the apology. we are again one with the world [:)]

Mike-
You are completely correct and making a logical arguement. In fact, I would go so far as to say that you are just speaking in terms of common sense. Check the thread called 'Soprano sax legato inconsistency' and you will see that mvanbebber was banned from this forum for relentlessly pursuing this problem. In the thread, Herb admits: "Our expirience with the soprano is: performance legato recording works perfectly in piano, works also perfectly in forte in a slided style, but does not work in normal forte legato."
The many subsequent attempts and demos trying to prove otherwise are an attempt, in my opinion to conceal this inconsistency in the forte performance legato patch, and label it a 'myth' to divert attention from the problem instead of fixing it. I would love to use the soprano forte legato like all the other instruments in the VSL library, but you CANNOT. You absolutely CANNOT use it in mockups of classical music becuase of it's uncharacterstic slide from one note to another (this is what is posted by mvanbebber in the aforementioned thread - sounds like he was trying to do a mockup of 'Molly on the Shore' by Percy Grainger). THAT is why many users have labeled it (JUST THE SOPRANO FORTE LEGATO, NOW) unusable.
Let me be pretentious and try to boil the debate down to it's essential components:
1.) The SXS_perf-leg_f patch (NONE OF THE OTHER PATCHES FOR THE ENTIRE SOPRANO SAX INSTRUMENT) has a pronounced slide from one note to another, very inconsistent with ALL the other forte performance legato instruments in the entire VSL library.
2.) Herb admits that the VSL team was not able to get this patch to work correctly becuase of an 'overtone' that appeared between each note during the soprano performance legato recording sessions. This may have been caused by the player or any number of elements.
3.) The VSL team has no plans to change this, and/or no time to re-record this patch, and in the meantime is using 'Straw man' arguments to attack portions of users' posts on the subject to divert attention from the problem. For example, no one is arguing that the ENTIRE instrument is unusable for their needs, just the forte performance legato - which in my opinion is the most important patch of all.
4.) Further complicating the issue, several users have created demos showing the 'usefullness' of the other soprano sax patches (NOT THE FORTE LEGATO SOPRANO SAX), which were never in quesiton to begin with.

UUHHHH...... [:'(]

-Julie

" Also, instruments like the Euphonium (Which I'm purchasing through Dan Dean) and flugelhorn (dan dean has this also), Eb clarinet (which I'm purchasing from VSL), alto clarinet (Eb), and of course SAXOPHONES, which I am going to purchase through VSL also (though I have read that they have an unusable soprano sax, which is a shame.) I wish they would make a saxophones 2 also, with alto, bari and bass. I would surely buy it if it didn't have the same problems as the soprano in saxophones 1 (see thread in this forum and listen to the examples!)
thanks,
Julie"

"4.) Further complicating the issue, several users have created demos showing the 'usefullness' of the other soprano sax patches (NOT THE FORTE SOPRANO SAX), which were never in quesiton to begin with."

Julie I have no argument with your above posts but a inconsistency with your statements as can be seen from your above quotes.

It is not my intent to embarras you, but to make clear that time was takin to answer your initial worry of whether the soprano sax was "unusable"

Sharmy

Sharmy-
There is no inconsistency with my statement, I just should have been more clear. I think I was VERY clear with the post above, so I would not confuse anyone. To me, an unusable forte performance legato (which is the most important patch of them all, IMO) renders the instrument unusable. This may not be the case for everyone, but it is for me. But, once again, let's not let this lack of clarity on my part take attention away from the issue as has happened so many times before. The soprano sax forte performance legato is inconsistent with all others in the VSL library.
-Julie

[8-)]

no good deed goes unpunished

Julie, that pretty much sums it up.

@Julie said:

This may not be the case for everyone, but it is for me.
-Julie

That pretty much sums it up.

Andy.

Julie

There have been too many posts on this forum that are accusatory in tone towards the VSL. The VSL is not a government service that has to cater to people however they act. It has no obligation to listen to anybody except its auditors. This whole forum is optional in fact. But the enterprise was created in a good natured way to have an emphasis on music making and the art of sampling and so people have been encouraged to voice opinions and develop a "community" of like minded musicians.

Your posts on this subject have been arrogant and sarcastic. The idea that missing one articulation (or not even missing it - just not being satisfied with it) makes an instrument unuseable is an absurd and negative attitude. If you had any knowledge of the business of creating a sample library you would show a great deal more respect than you have.

"The idea that missing one articulation (or not even missing it - just not being satisfied with it) makes an instrument unuseable is an absurd and negative attitude."

First, I have to ask, do you honestly think the patch labled forte legato really is that? If you have a passage requiring that articulation you'd use the patch with no qualms? If a sax player played a gig using that technique for all forte legato passages, everyone listening would be fine with it? (if the patch is OK, why aren't any of the people defending it even willing to post a demo showing that it is OK?)

Second, I take the issue with the idea that calling the instrument is unusable is "absurd". There's no question that one particular articulation doesn't delivered as promised, even Vienna admits it. The only question is whether you are willing to forgive this omission. If you need a legato forte on this instrument, your options are to use piano instead, or use a different articulation instead. Either case is a compromise.

There's no question the flaw is there. Some people are obviously willing to forgive it. But it's pointless to attack people just because they aren't willing to make that compromise.

@mike connelly said:

Second, I take the issue with the idea that calling the instrument is unusable is "absurd". There's no question that one particular articulation doesn't delivered as promised, even Vienna admits it. Either case is a compromise.There's no question the flaw is there. Some people are obviously willing to forgive it. But it's pointless to attack people just because they aren't willing to make that compromise.

Mike & "Julie"

Let's be honest. You've both made your points about this for some time now. OK. Point is taken presumably. I dare say there are 'flaws' in most things in life, not just the odd sample patch. Maybe VSL will address whatever the problem is, maybe not.

But do you mind if I just ask

ARE YOU GOING TO GO ON AND ON AND ON AND ON ABOUT IT?

Because if you are, there can be only two outcomes in my view. Guess what they are? (rhetorical)!

Thanks

PR

I didn't start this thread, nor did Julie. If you have a question about why this is still being discussed, why don't you ask the guy who did?

@Another User said:

If you had any knowledge of the business of creating a sample library you would show a great deal more respect than you have.

And you say the I am sarcastic and arrogant?! You're statement above is, ironically, arrogant and sarcastic. I didn't say anything to you, so why are getting involved in this debate and calling me names? [*-)]

Craig-
To which 'good deed' are you referring? I listened to your demo again, and am impressed with you skill, but the few times you did use the forte performance legato patch seem out of place, with much too much portamento. I love the sections with the piano performance legato though, it's quite obvious which patch you used where.

thanks for listening,
Julie
[/quote]

@mike connelly said:

I didn't start this thread, nor did Julie. If you have a question about why this is still being discussed, why don't you ask the guy who did?

[:D] [:D] [:D] [:D] [:D] [:D] [:D] [:D] [:D]
I've already spoken about why I posted the demo. As it stands you expect people to waste their time in posting further demos. When will you be happy - when someone's posted every possible interval with the forte leg patch. The truth is that I could post a forte leg demo with no port what-so-ever and I could also post a forte leg demo with complete port from note to note. Until you own the library you will NEVER have a total understanding of how the patch works. If you don't think it's worth the risk, don't buy it. There is no obligation here on your part. You make it sound like you're being forced to invest in the library.

Andy.

@Julie said:

Andy-
That was a very deceptive demo you have created. There are only two notes that use the forte performance legato. ALL others are quite obviously the piano performance legato. I challenge you to make a demo with %100 forte performance legato, in a classical style like the one you have posted.

[/quote]

This is getting fun.

Julie,

There are more than two forte notes in the demo. The fact is you don't own the library, so how could you know? Like I've already stated, I'm not going to waste my time by posting demos for you, when your mind is clearly made up.

Thanks,

Andy.

"When will you be happy - when someone's posted every possible interval with the forte leg patch."

Of course not. But you posted a demo consisting mostly of one patch in an attempt to demonstrate another. Every demo that I have heard of just the forte has sounded awful.

"The truth is that I could post a forte leg demo with no port what-so-ever"

Well, that certainly would clear things up. How hard is it to load up the demo you did on this thread on just the forte legato? Why hasn't *anyone* posted a demo that shows that the forte is fine?

"Until you own the library you will NEVER have a total understanding of how the patch works."

Which is why the demos are useful. Based on what has been posted, it sounds like the forte legato is more of a portamento. If that's a wrong impression, it is easily corrected by a demo showing otherwise.

@mike connelly said:

How hard is it to load up the demo you did on this thread on just the forte legato?

It's a question of motivation. Besides which, if you honestly think that creating a convincing demo is as easy as just swapping dynamics.............
Andy.

The piano and forte legatos are supposedly programmed the same way and are supposedly interchangable. (Demos have been posted in which entire instruments have been swapped and both versions sound great) If swapping a piano patch for the corresponding forte one suddenly takes it from convincing to not, it sounds like something IS wrong.

Don't buy it then [:D] I'm certainly getting use out of it.


Andy. [:D]

ok guys, this discussion (and unfortunately it is _no_ discussion) gets tiring and boring - [deleted]. live your life and please continue elsewhere. this is ignorant and offending. dot.
christian

My apologies, Christian - I did mean to offend and will stop posting on this thread immideately. Thanks for all you do and the VSL team also.
-Julie