"the forte-leg on the sop sax does not play the way other forte legato instruments do... so what?"

So if you need forte and legato without portamento, you're out of luck. That's what.


"As far as forte instead of piano...it cannot be the same sound as we know the instrument reacts differently when played softly or more forceful."

If you're saying that playing legato and loud on a soprano sax always results in big scoops, it sounds like you haven't worked with live sax players much. If the player they recorded couldn't play forte legato without scooping, they should have found a player who could.

Pfffffffff .... here we go again. [8-)]

/Dietz

It's an easy issue to put to rest...if the forte legato sounds fine, just make a demo with it and we'll see that this was all a big misunderstanding.

Holy Crap!!!!

Every articulation is "fine", and most are far beyond that. You wouldn't play a whole passage with an fp... perhaps the label of this notorious articulation is not too accurate, but it has its place, I'm sure, and is probably very handy for that purpose. Maybe it should be called "perf-port" or "perf-leg_gl", but who cares? You listen to it, you don't like it, so don't use it. End of story!!!! This notion that you've somehow been "ripped off" is just stupid. It's already been explained why the forte perf-leg didn't turn out as expected during the sampling sessions, and that's that... (I remember something about a harmonic artifact, that became particularly noticable in the legato-transition recordings at forte. Now, I'm sure Herb made the best choice, given this symptom. It's probably worth note, BTW, that the "correct" perf-leg you're looking for may have sounded totally ridiculous with that sonic artifact included. And the fact is, you weren't there, so you simply don't know! I'd imagine, on comparing the artifact-ed samples with the slightly scooped ones, you'd probably be happy with what you got. Reproducing this sort of artifact over the entire instrument would likely sound completely obnoxious, and would also carry a profound "sample signature" along with it, thus still needing to be used sparingly and with great care.)

@Another User said:

[...] they should have found a player who could.

completly excrescent statement.

/Dietz

"perhaps the label of this notorious articulation is not too accurate"

Perhaps. This would probably be less controversial if vienna simply was more clear about it in their articulation list.

"Maybe it should be called "perf-port" or "perf-leg_gl", but who cares?"

Considering "legato" playing is used much more often than "portamento" playing, I assume there are a decent number of people who care. Not only is one of the most often used articulations missing, there's also a different articulation labled incorrectly in place of it.

"You listen to it, you don't like it, so don't use it. End of story!!!!"

Or if you need legato forte, you don't buy it.

"It's probably worth note, BTW, that the "correct" perf-leg you're looking for may have sounded totally ridiculous with that sonic artifact included. And the fact is, you weren't there, so you simply don't know"

I don't dispute that they had a problem they couldn't solve, I take issue with the idea that recording a soprano sax playing legato forte isn't possible and the only solution is to do without it.

"I'd imagine, on comparing the artifact-ed samples with the slightly scooped ones, you'd probably be happy with what you got."

Speculation on your part, although it's a moot point since I'd consider the scooped ones completely unacceptable in a situation in which you want legato.


"completly excrescent statement."

I went back and read the old thread, and it sounds (as best as I can understand the explanation) like it was a problem due to recording or editing instead of playing. I apologize if I offended the player if it turns out the recording engineers were to blame. Herb has admitted that they were unable to get a recording of the forte legato that they were happy with. I can only assume that could have been remedied by using either a different player, instrument or recording technique. You don't think it's possible to record a soprano sax playing legato without either scoops or some sort of "recording artifact"?

"If you're saying that playing legato and loud on a soprano sax always results in big scoops, it sounds like you haven't worked with live sax players much.

Mike,

You have stated you want a per_leg forte like other wind instruments. i have agreed that this per_leg patch is different from other wind instruments. I have suggested workarounds. If that's not acceptable to you so be it, but i find your behavior reprehensible. You are putting your own meaning to my words, I never stated anything close to what you write above. You also have no idea of my background.

The demo sounds great, and plenty "forte", even if the leg-F articulation wasn't used.

The whole argument reminds me of similar situations with brass instruments. For example, the upper velocity layers of a multi-layered horn patch often sound "brassy". In fact, I rarely use the loudest sampled layer of trumpet and horn patches because they sound this way.

Unquestionably, a great performer can perform very loud and control the tone to a degree, but there are times when this brassy sound is called for in performance and should therefore be included as an articulation in the library. The same goes for the soprano sax - perhaps "unusable" in some musical instances, but not in others.

The point is, you don't always choose the "forte" articulation when you want a "forte" volume. I always think of the dynamics and velocity layers in terms of timbre, rather than volume.

Furthermore, no uniform naming convention will ever solve all of these differences because musical playing is so detailed and can have such nuance. Perhaps in 50 years we will have interactive digitized sax performers on our computer and we can just tell the computer "okay, now take out the slides, accent the fourth note a bit stronger and then decrescendo more immediately." [:)] Until then we have to do it manually.

As someone who knows both these guys, I think Craig vs. Mike would be an excellent match-up. Craig's in good condition and has a few years on Mike, but Mike is an absolutely ferocious man who dresses in leather and chains, and they're probably in the same weight class.

Las Vegas would put the odds at 1:1. Anyone want to place a side wager?

EDIT:

WAIT! I thought it was dpcon who was challenging Craig to the duel. His name isn't even Mike, and I have to admit that his accusations that Craig hasn't played with a live sax player (when in fact he used to play with Ronnie Laws) didn't seem in character.

My bad. Sorry. [:O]ops:

I prefer not loosing my time with this ... spending time on music is cleaver [:D]

"Reprehensible"? Come on.

"it cannot be the same sound as we know the instrument reacts differently when played softly or more forceful."

Maybe I misinterpreted this statement, I took it to mean that the scooping (or other problems) are to be expected when playing loud legato on a soprano sax. Is that not what you meant? My apologies if I misunderstood you.

"Maybe I misinterpreted this statement, I took it to mean that the scooping (or other problems) are to be expected when playing loud legato on a soprano sax. Is that not what you meant? My apologies if I misunderstood you"

you did misunderstand me...thanks for the apology. we are again one with the world [:)]

Mike-
You are completely correct and making a logical arguement. In fact, I would go so far as to say that you are just speaking in terms of common sense. Check the thread called 'Soprano sax legato inconsistency' and you will see that mvanbebber was banned from this forum for relentlessly pursuing this problem. In the thread, Herb admits: "Our expirience with the soprano is: performance legato recording works perfectly in piano, works also perfectly in forte in a slided style, but does not work in normal forte legato."
The many subsequent attempts and demos trying to prove otherwise are an attempt, in my opinion to conceal this inconsistency in the forte performance legato patch, and label it a 'myth' to divert attention from the problem instead of fixing it. I would love to use the soprano forte legato like all the other instruments in the VSL library, but you CANNOT. You absolutely CANNOT use it in mockups of classical music becuase of it's uncharacterstic slide from one note to another (this is what is posted by mvanbebber in the aforementioned thread - sounds like he was trying to do a mockup of 'Molly on the Shore' by Percy Grainger). THAT is why many users have labeled it (JUST THE SOPRANO FORTE LEGATO, NOW) unusable.
Let me be pretentious and try to boil the debate down to it's essential components:
1.) The SXS_perf-leg_f patch (NONE OF THE OTHER PATCHES FOR THE ENTIRE SOPRANO SAX INSTRUMENT) has a pronounced slide from one note to another, very inconsistent with ALL the other forte performance legato instruments in the entire VSL library.
2.) Herb admits that the VSL team was not able to get this patch to work correctly becuase of an 'overtone' that appeared between each note during the soprano performance legato recording sessions. This may have been caused by the player or any number of elements.
3.) The VSL team has no plans to change this, and/or no time to re-record this patch, and in the meantime is using 'Straw man' arguments to attack portions of users' posts on the subject to divert attention from the problem. For example, no one is arguing that the ENTIRE instrument is unusable for their needs, just the forte performance legato - which in my opinion is the most important patch of all.
4.) Further complicating the issue, several users have created demos showing the 'usefullness' of the other soprano sax patches (NOT THE FORTE LEGATO SOPRANO SAX), which were never in quesiton to begin with.

UUHHHH...... [:'(]

-Julie

" Also, instruments like the Euphonium (Which I'm purchasing through Dan Dean) and flugelhorn (dan dean has this also), Eb clarinet (which I'm purchasing from VSL), alto clarinet (Eb), and of course SAXOPHONES, which I am going to purchase through VSL also (though I have read that they have an unusable soprano sax, which is a shame.) I wish they would make a saxophones 2 also, with alto, bari and bass. I would surely buy it if it didn't have the same problems as the soprano in saxophones 1 (see thread in this forum and listen to the examples!)
thanks,
Julie"

"4.) Further complicating the issue, several users have created demos showing the 'usefullness' of the other soprano sax patches (NOT THE FORTE SOPRANO SAX), which were never in quesiton to begin with."

Julie I have no argument with your above posts but a inconsistency with your statements as can be seen from your above quotes.

It is not my intent to embarras you, but to make clear that time was takin to answer your initial worry of whether the soprano sax was "unusable"

Sharmy

Sharmy-
There is no inconsistency with my statement, I just should have been more clear. I think I was VERY clear with the post above, so I would not confuse anyone. To me, an unusable forte performance legato (which is the most important patch of them all, IMO) renders the instrument unusable. This may not be the case for everyone, but it is for me. But, once again, let's not let this lack of clarity on my part take attention away from the issue as has happened so many times before. The soprano sax forte performance legato is inconsistent with all others in the VSL library.
-Julie

[8-)]

no good deed goes unpunished

Julie, that pretty much sums it up.

@Julie said:

This may not be the case for everyone, but it is for me.
-Julie

That pretty much sums it up.

Andy.

Julie

There have been too many posts on this forum that are accusatory in tone towards the VSL. The VSL is not a government service that has to cater to people however they act. It has no obligation to listen to anybody except its auditors. This whole forum is optional in fact. But the enterprise was created in a good natured way to have an emphasis on music making and the art of sampling and so people have been encouraged to voice opinions and develop a "community" of like minded musicians.

Your posts on this subject have been arrogant and sarcastic. The idea that missing one articulation (or not even missing it - just not being satisfied with it) makes an instrument unuseable is an absurd and negative attitude. If you had any knowledge of the business of creating a sample library you would show a great deal more respect than you have.

"The idea that missing one articulation (or not even missing it - just not being satisfied with it) makes an instrument unuseable is an absurd and negative attitude."

First, I have to ask, do you honestly think the patch labled forte legato really is that? If you have a passage requiring that articulation you'd use the patch with no qualms? If a sax player played a gig using that technique for all forte legato passages, everyone listening would be fine with it? (if the patch is OK, why aren't any of the people defending it even willing to post a demo showing that it is OK?)

Second, I take the issue with the idea that calling the instrument is unusable is "absurd". There's no question that one particular articulation doesn't delivered as promised, even Vienna admits it. The only question is whether you are willing to forgive this omission. If you need a legato forte on this instrument, your options are to use piano instead, or use a different articulation instead. Either case is a compromise.

There's no question the flaw is there. Some people are obviously willing to forgive it. But it's pointless to attack people just because they aren't willing to make that compromise.