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  • Sop Sax - Perf-leg Exposed

    Hi Guys,

    In response to the ongoing saga...I've put together a short piece that uses only the Sop Sax P & F PERF-LEG samples - it's also unaccompanied.

    Andy.

    http://homepage.ntlworld.com/ablaney/Sop%20Sax%20Perf_leg%20Demo.mp3

    EDIT: btw I posted this before realising that Craig had done something similar in the previous thread.

  • wow, see this sounds perfect to me. What were other people talking about? they must have been confused really bad.

  • I thought the piano was fine but the forte had the portamento.

    How much of this is the forte?

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    @Another User said:

    wow, see this sounds perfect to me. What were other people talking about? they must have been confused really bad.


    No.. whats confusing is this demo! I can tell you that right here and now that either very little of it is forte or the notes arent played connected.

    I will say this, and thats what I have been saying all the time (Becuase I own the liberary, and know) - the soprano sax is indeed both useable and sounds great, as proven by this demo

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    @mike connelly said:

    I thought the piano was fine but the forte had the portamento.

    How much of this is the forte?


    Hi Mike,

    I created a velocity switch patch by converting to mono, so it's difficult to say exactly what's what. There are some notes in the forte patch that have a slight port up to the note, but far from all (I haven't found any going down), but on the whole they feel natural and organic and if you're really after something straight you can just reach for the marcato perf-leg patch. I don't think the demo lacks dynamics, so if you're having to ask 'which is forte?' it suggests that there isn't an issue.

    Hope this makes sense.

    Andy.

  • " if you're having to ask 'which is forte?' it suggests that there isn't an issue."

    Unless it's all (or virtually all) piano. From what I'm hearing, I wouldn't be surprised if there are only a couple notes of the forte in it.

    It's obvious that the piano sounds great, no need to post demos of it. Since the forte is what's being debated, could you play the same demo using only the forte patch?

  • Mike,

    The reason I decided to post a demo was to counter the rumor that the Soprano Sax was 'unusable'. The demo speaks for itself - if you're happy with how it sounds, then you'll be able to create the same sound too. I've already spoken about the slight portamento on some of the forte notes.

    Andy.

  • I agree that "unusable" is likely an exaggeration. But it does sound like an articulation that is available for most other vienna instruments is not for the soprano sax.

    It's not that the instrument is unusable, it's that one patch seems to be unusable (or at least not usable in the same way that it's usable for all other instruments).

    Nobody has complained about the other articulations so I don't see the point of posting demos using them. "Creating the same sound" isn't that useful, I want to know if you can "create the same sound" but forte instead of piano.

    If the forte legato is usable, why not post a demo that shows it off?

  • the forte-leg on the sop sax does not play the way other forte legato instruments do... so what?...VSL was a little bit inconsistent with it's delivery. To me it is a small semantic. The most important thing is can a good result be acheived with the instrument.

    "Nobody has complained about the other articulations so I don't see the point of posting demos using them. "Creating the same sound" isn't that useful, I want to know if you can "create the same sound" but forte instead of piano."

    Actually the similar thread about the Sop sax was started because of complaints that the instrument was unusable by people who hadn't tried it. As far as forte instead of piano...it cannot be the same sound as we know the instrument reacts differently when played softly or more forceful. There are plenty of useful forte samples in the library and can be used in conjunction with the forte_legato patch.

  • "the forte-leg on the sop sax does not play the way other forte legato instruments do... so what?"

    So if you need forte and legato without portamento, you're out of luck. That's what.


    "As far as forte instead of piano...it cannot be the same sound as we know the instrument reacts differently when played softly or more forceful."

    If you're saying that playing legato and loud on a soprano sax always results in big scoops, it sounds like you haven't worked with live sax players much. If the player they recorded couldn't play forte legato without scooping, they should have found a player who could.

  • Pfffffffff .... here we go again. [8-)]

    /Dietz

    /Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
  • It's an easy issue to put to rest...if the forte legato sounds fine, just make a demo with it and we'll see that this was all a big misunderstanding.

  • Holy Crap!!!!

    Every articulation is "fine", and most are far beyond that. You wouldn't play a whole passage with an fp... perhaps the label of this notorious articulation is not too accurate, but it has its place, I'm sure, and is probably very handy for that purpose. Maybe it should be called "perf-port" or "perf-leg_gl", but who cares? You listen to it, you don't like it, so don't use it. End of story!!!! This notion that you've somehow been "ripped off" is just stupid. It's already been explained why the forte perf-leg didn't turn out as expected during the sampling sessions, and that's that... (I remember something about a harmonic artifact, that became particularly noticable in the legato-transition recordings at forte. Now, I'm sure Herb made the best choice, given this symptom. It's probably worth note, BTW, that the "correct" perf-leg you're looking for may have sounded totally ridiculous with that sonic artifact included. And the fact is, you weren't there, so you simply don't know! I'd imagine, on comparing the artifact-ed samples with the slightly scooped ones, you'd probably be happy with what you got. Reproducing this sort of artifact over the entire instrument would likely sound completely obnoxious, and would also carry a profound "sample signature" along with it, thus still needing to be used sparingly and with great care.)

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    @Another User said:

    [...] they should have found a player who could.


    completly excrescent statement.

    /Dietz

    /Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
  • "perhaps the label of this notorious articulation is not too accurate"

    Perhaps. This would probably be less controversial if vienna simply was more clear about it in their articulation list.

    "Maybe it should be called "perf-port" or "perf-leg_gl", but who cares?"

    Considering "legato" playing is used much more often than "portamento" playing, I assume there are a decent number of people who care. Not only is one of the most often used articulations missing, there's also a different articulation labled incorrectly in place of it.

    "You listen to it, you don't like it, so don't use it. End of story!!!!"

    Or if you need legato forte, you don't buy it.

    "It's probably worth note, BTW, that the "correct" perf-leg you're looking for may have sounded totally ridiculous with that sonic artifact included. And the fact is, you weren't there, so you simply don't know"

    I don't dispute that they had a problem they couldn't solve, I take issue with the idea that recording a soprano sax playing legato forte isn't possible and the only solution is to do without it.

    "I'd imagine, on comparing the artifact-ed samples with the slightly scooped ones, you'd probably be happy with what you got."

    Speculation on your part, although it's a moot point since I'd consider the scooped ones completely unacceptable in a situation in which you want legato.


    "completly excrescent statement."

    I went back and read the old thread, and it sounds (as best as I can understand the explanation) like it was a problem due to recording or editing instead of playing. I apologize if I offended the player if it turns out the recording engineers were to blame. Herb has admitted that they were unable to get a recording of the forte legato that they were happy with. I can only assume that could have been remedied by using either a different player, instrument or recording technique. You don't think it's possible to record a soprano sax playing legato without either scoops or some sort of "recording artifact"?

  • "If you're saying that playing legato and loud on a soprano sax always results in big scoops, it sounds like you haven't worked with live sax players much.

    Mike,

    You have stated you want a per_leg forte like other wind instruments. i have agreed that this per_leg patch is different from other wind instruments. I have suggested workarounds. If that's not acceptable to you so be it, but i find your behavior reprehensible. You are putting your own meaning to my words, I never stated anything close to what you write above. You also have no idea of my background.

  • The demo sounds great, and plenty "forte", even if the leg-F articulation wasn't used.

    The whole argument reminds me of similar situations with brass instruments. For example, the upper velocity layers of a multi-layered horn patch often sound "brassy". In fact, I rarely use the loudest sampled layer of trumpet and horn patches because they sound this way.

    Unquestionably, a great performer can perform very loud and control the tone to a degree, but there are times when this brassy sound is called for in performance and should therefore be included as an articulation in the library. The same goes for the soprano sax - perhaps "unusable" in some musical instances, but not in others.

    The point is, you don't always choose the "forte" articulation when you want a "forte" volume. I always think of the dynamics and velocity layers in terms of timbre, rather than volume.

    Furthermore, no uniform naming convention will ever solve all of these differences because musical playing is so detailed and can have such nuance. Perhaps in 50 years we will have interactive digitized sax performers on our computer and we can just tell the computer "okay, now take out the slides, accent the fourth note a bit stronger and then decrescendo more immediately." [:)] Until then we have to do it manually.

  • As someone who knows both these guys, I think Craig vs. Mike would be an excellent match-up. Craig's in good condition and has a few years on Mike, but Mike is an absolutely ferocious man who dresses in leather and chains, and they're probably in the same weight class.

    Las Vegas would put the odds at 1:1. Anyone want to place a side wager?

    EDIT:

    WAIT! I thought it was dpcon who was challenging Craig to the duel. His name isn't even Mike, and I have to admit that his accusations that Craig hasn't played with a live sax player (when in fact he used to play with Ronnie Laws) didn't seem in character.

    My bad. Sorry. [:O]ops:

  • I prefer not loosing my time with this ... spending time on music is cleaver [:D]

  • "Reprehensible"? Come on.

    "it cannot be the same sound as we know the instrument reacts differently when played softly or more forceful."

    Maybe I misinterpreted this statement, I took it to mean that the scooping (or other problems) are to be expected when playing loud legato on a soprano sax. Is that not what you meant? My apologies if I misunderstood you.