Best Trill notation

[jbm]

This is for all you theory geeks out there!

I'm just cleaning up the score on my most recent concert music commission, and I came across a common problem which I thought people might have some thoughts about. It's just the issue of the best, and most accurate, way of notating a trill in music which is _not_ in any specific key. I know of no single, sufficient set of symbols to do the job... I mean, there's the "tr + b", "tr + nat.", "tr + #", but they aren't so clear in all cases. For example, if you want a minor trill on Eb, then would you use a "tr + nat."? That seems to work for me, but suppose you had a trill on E nat. in the next bar; would that now _also_ be "tr + nat."?
What I wish I could find is a single format symbol that definitively meant "minor 2nd trill" or "major 2nd trill". The _clearest_ way, still, is to use a small, bracketed note to indicate the "trill to" note. But that can be a real hassle in Finale, particularly when it's in the middle of a more complex phrase.

If anybody knows the magic symbol, please let me know.

J.

[Galleddrim]

@jbm said:

This is for all you theory geeks out there!

I'm just cleaning up the score on my most recent concert music commission, and I came across a common problem which I thought people might have some thoughts about. It's just the issue of the best, and most accurate, way of notating a trill in music which is _not_ in any specific key. I know of no single, sufficient set of symbols to do the job... I mean, there's the "tr + b", "tr + nat.", "tr + #", but they aren't so clear in all cases. For example, if you want a minor trill on Eb, then would you use a "tr + nat."? That seems to work for me, but suppose you had a trill on E nat. in the next bar; would that now _also_ be "tr + nat."?
What I wish I could find is a single format symbol that definitively meant "minor 2nd trill" or "major 2nd trill". The _clearest_ way, still, is to use a small, bracketed note to indicate the "trill to" note. But that can be a real hassle in Finale, particularly when it's in the middle of a more complex phrase.

If anybody knows the magic symbol, please let me know.

J.

If you become famous, you can invent your own notation and everyone will have to use it. [[;)]]

~Chris

[DG]

@jbm said:

This is for all you theory geeks out there!

I'm just cleaning up the score on my most recent concert music commission, and I came across a common problem which I thought people might have some thoughts about. It's just the issue of the best, and most accurate, way of notating a trill in music which is _not_ in any specific key. I know of no single, sufficient set of symbols to do the job... I mean, there's the "tr + b", "tr + nat.", "tr + #", but they aren't so clear in all cases. For example, if you want a minor trill on Eb, then would you use a "tr + nat."? That seems to work for me, but suppose you had a trill on E nat. in the next bar; would that now _also_ be "tr + nat."?
What I wish I could find is a single format symbol that definitively meant "minor 2nd trill" or "major 2nd trill". The _clearest_ way, still, is to use a small, bracketed note to indicate the "trill to" note. But that can be a real hassle in Finale, particularly when it's in the middle of a more complex phrase.

If anybody knows the magic symbol, please let me know.

J.

A trill on an Eb with a b means trill Eb to Fb. A trill on E with nothing means trill E to F. The only confusion really occurs if you have a trill on a double sharp or flat, but the same rule applies, as trills should always be a tone or a semi-tone, not an augmented unison. I hope that this is clearer now... [:)]

DG

[dkala]

you can find such a bracketed notes in cheaper software like vivaldi score or play music.It is just a matter of select the right note and put it on the score .No trouble like finale .Sometime the cheaper the better

[jbm]

DG,

Thanks for that. Don't know why I never thought of the E-natural as Fb... weird! I just don't use key signatures anymore (it's been that way for at least 10 years in my compositional world), so I didn't even think about it. Actually, I was self-taught for my first ten years, then I got into University based on my scores, so I managed to never set foot in a Music Conservatory! gulp... {:-0
But this is actually a straight-forward case... what about a minor 2nd trill on Db? Is that "tr + nat."??? I mean, technically, D-natural would be a chromatic semitone above Db, whereas avoiding the augmented unison would demand a "tr + bb" symbol... This is the whole reason I stopped using key signatures -- they just try to cram 7 discrete notes into a 12-note space! The whole system erected around them just doesn't function in chromatic work. (Actually, I have to admit that my music does, in fact, use diatonic segments frequently. I still, however, refuse to think of them as "keys"... I'm stubborn that way!)
Anyway, thanks again. If I'm way off, just let me know...
BTW, I think I'll take Gelleddrim's approach -- not necessarily getting famous, but making a specific notation, with a legend in the score. i made a symbol in Finale with a "tr" (plus trill-line) and either a "+1" or "+2" above it. Seems nice and clear to me, simply saying "trill one semitone", or "trill two semitones". I'll see what the players say. If they hate me for it, I'll change it.

[dpcon]

jbm,

You answered your own question when you suggested showing the two notes to be trilled as small notes. This is a foolproof method no matter the harmonic context. The problem is a notational application one (Finale Sibelius etc.) as you also stated. So that is where it must solved as obviously it is easily solved by hand.

I know this post is bordering on useless but perhaps not.

Dave Connor

[DG]

@jbm said:

DG,

Thanks for that. Don't know why I never thought of the E-natural as Fb... weird! I just don't use key signatures anymore (it's been that way for at least 10 years in my compositional world), so I didn't even think about it. Actually, I was self-taught for my first ten years, then I got into University based on my scores, so I managed to never set foot in a Music Conservatory! gulp... {:-0
But this is actually a straight-forward case... what about a minor 2nd trill on Db? Is that "tr + nat."??? I mean, technically, D-natural would be a chromatic semitone above Db, whereas avoiding the augmented unison would demand a "tr + bb" symbol... This is the whole reason I stopped using key signatures -- they just try to cram 7 discrete notes into a 12-note space! The whole system erected around them just doesn't function in chromatic work. (Actually, I have to admit that my music does, in fact, use diatonic segments frequently. I still, however, refuse to think of them as "keys"... I'm stubborn that way!)
Anyway, thanks again. If I'm way off, just let me know...
BTW, I think I'll take Gelleddrim's approach -- not necessarily getting famous, but making a specific notation, with a legend in the score. i made a symbol in Finale with a "tr" (plus trill-line) and either a "+1" or "+2" above it. Seems nice and clear to me, simply saying "trill one semitone", or "trill two semitones". I'll see what the players say. If they hate me for it, I'll change it.

The Db to D nat is done using bb over the trill. However, you are correct when say that whatever seems clear is the best option. This is always the best option; something that composers (and publishers in particular) often forget.

DG

[Andy B]

Hi JBM,

I don't bother with key signatures either and for trills I use the notation which is used for fingered tremolos (a trill that has a wider interval than a major 2nd). This is notated by writing both pitches and inserting a tremolo symbol inbetween. There's a weird rule with this notation - the duration of the trill/tremolo is shown by BOTH notes. For example, if you wanted a minum trill E & F it would be notated as two minums with a trem symbol between them. I know that Sibelius is capable of doing this (and is bright enough to realise that your not trying to cram too many notes into the bar).

Hope this helps.

Andy.

[jbm]

Hey Andy B,

That's an interesting idea... I never thought of using a tremolo. I'm not exactly sure how a performer would approach that, though, and it could be awkward to write in anything other than simple metrical values. I really prefer using the trill symbol and wavy line, because it really suggests something specific to the performer -- a certain attack and release. I've always felt tremolos to be a little "straighter" than trills... don't know if that makes any sense.
I'm going with my little custom symbol for now, and if the performers are really confused or annoyed I'll go back to the "trill to" notes -- ultimately, they are probably the best solution.

thanks,

J.