@Bas10 said:

It works!! I've tested it using the MIR Pro Trial with the 'start venue' and the Mozart Saal trial venue. I am using Cubase 6.0.5 on a PC. The VE Audio Plug-Ins are in FX channels that throw 'instrument groups' into the multiple MIR Pros, which all run on one DAW.

So this is the final (working) diagram:

           ---> DAW VE VST 1 ---> Slave 1 VE Host ==> DAW VE VST 1 ==>                                                     DAW VE 1 ==> MIR 1

DAW                                                                                                              DAW ==> VE Audio Plug-in ==> DAW VE 2 ==> MIR 2 ==> DAW

           ---> DAW VE VST 2 ---> Slave 2 VE Host ==> DAW VE VST 2 ==>                                                     DAW VE 3 ==> MIR 3

Thanks a lot, Karel and Dietz!

I'll post quantitative results when I have them. But for now, with 3 MIR Pros running and five audio input channels each, all playing, my 2600K system has an 18% CPU load in Task Manager, for the whole system that is. Not bad at all, and much less load then I expected. This really sounds promising.

Hello Karel

Will this work with Logic too?

What is the trick to send my 96 audio tracks from the 1st VE server to the VE server that contains  MIR ?

Best

Cyril

Dietz, It was just for testing purposes, to validate that the different MIR instances indeed have no problem loading different venues. It all works great, as expected from software of your standards, and exceding expectations in the processing load department.

I assume that the Grosser Saal venue probably has a (slightly?) higher load than the Mozart Saal because of the longer tails. Then again, the load of the start venue is probably lower. Based on what I saw and even more on what I heard, I sure am going down the MIR path now. I can now sculpt out beautiful staging, hall presence and finely simulating close micing and combine them into a kaleidoscopical sound field. Although somewhat limited by the choice of venues in the trial, I already got some pretty pleasing sounds out of it.

Although it is not my intention to mix venues, in fact that's what the Berliner Philharmoniker did ages ago. They used to reverberate their recordings in a Berlin church, at night, to later mix it into the to be released recordings, reaping great results. Then who am I to argue with them that mixing venues is a bad idea? ;-)

By the way, that 'start venue' isn't bad at all. In its preset form it gives a nice staging, and if you increase the reverb time the tail isn't bad either, is that the Neuer Saal perhaps?

Cyril, although I am not Karel, having a few years of experience in Logic, I see no problem of getting this to work in Logic. As a matter of fact, the crucial part, the VE Pro Audio Plug-in, is explained in the VE Pro manual on page 14 with screenshots of Logic.

My approach is to pre-mix the orchestra instrument groups into sections. Percussion, Brass, Woodwinds, Strings (and Piano), and for each a left, middle and right stereo channel, that gives me 12 channels, so still 4 stereo channels, per VE Pro slave that is, for special things, a Harp, a soloist, a special directivity profile needed somewhere, etc. I see it as a stage partitioning. Indeed, it might be somewhat limiting, but it appears to be just what I need at the moment,

Hi Bas10

96 tracks is not a typo, in fact it is 97 VI and 3 audio from Play, K4 and Ominisphere.

Best

Cyril

@Another User said:

By the way, that 'start venue' isn't bad at all. In its preset form it gives a nice staging, and if you increase the reverb time the tail isn't bad either, is that the Neuer Saal perhaps?

No, it's just one IR position from Vienna Konzerthaus - Grosser Saal (... I think I even mentioned this in the manual somewhere).

Kind regards, 

@Dietz said:

...you would run into problems when mixing the wet _and the dry_ signals from different Venues. Consequently, MIR Pro' upcoming "Secondary Microphone"-feature will only output the resulting wet signal components, too.

That's indeed what I thought, so I have set the 2nd MIR Pro to "Wet Solo" (as it is called in the MIR GUI if I remember correctly). The funny thing is, when I forgot to do this for the 3rd MIR Pro instance, no problem arose. Perhaps the explanation is that MIR Pro is working better than you think 😉 No phasing occurred, the dry signal was just playing at a higher level, and this pointed me to the fact that I forgot to cut the dry signal.

Thanks again, Dietz.

@Bas10 said:

My approach is to pre-mix the orchestra instrument groups into sections. Percussion, Brass, Woodwinds, Strings (and Piano), and for each a left, middle and right stereo channel, that gives me 12 channels, so still 4 stereo channels, per VE Pro slave that is, for special things, a Harp, a soloist, a special directivity profile needed somewhere, etc. I see it as a stage partitioning. Indeed, it might be somewhat limiting, but it appears to be just what I need at the moment,

Hi BAS 10

Why does an instrument has a profile in MIR ?

Does this interfere in the calculations of MIR ?

If you want to have a 7.1 surround do you have to send 8 channels per VI instruments to the MIR computer  ? 

I will be very happy if either Dietz or Karel could respond to my previous mail ?

Thanks in advance

Best

Cyril

@Bas10 said:

[...] That's indeed what I thought, so I have set the 2nd MIR Pro to "Wet Solo" (as it is called in the MIR GUI if I remember correctly). The funny thing is, when I forgot to do this for the 3rd MIR Pro instance, no problem arose. Perhaps the explanation is that MIR Pro is working better than you think 😉 No phasing occurred, the dry signal was just playing at a higher level, and this pointed me to the fact that I forgot to cut the dry signal.

Thanks again, Dietz.

You're welcome!

It's not so much about phasing, more about the blurring of the precise positions of the dry signals. Due to the very different dimensions and architectural details of the individual MIR Venues they will hardly ever match.

Kind regards,

@Another User said:

If you want to have a 7.1 surround do you have to send 8 channels per VI instruments to the MIR computer  ?

Like pointed out several times already, you can't send surround signals into MIR. This wouldn't make much sense anyway.

As you may know by now, MIR Pro is able to _create_ most common surround formats, though.

HTH,

@Cyril said:

Why does an instrument has a profile in MIR ? 

Like mentioned in the manual, MIR's "Instrument Profiles" act as a meta-layer of information between a signal and MIR's processing, to allow for the highly realistic interaction of the room and a specific signal source.

Hi Dietz

Thanks for your answer, this confirm my thouhts !

So it is not a very good idea do to what Bas10 does, i.e. doing a pre-mix of the "pupitres" ? desk ? 

Each instruments MUST go into MIR SEPARATLY  and it is the reason you did not answer to my previous post.

I have noticed that in VSL there is a habit not to answer to post when the answer is NO, I would prefer you just say "no it is not possible", than to wait for days for an answer.

Best

Cyril

YES, we are bad, Cyril. And YES, sometimes we don't answer posts around midnight anymore like I do now. (... see, again not a "NO" as an answer. *roll*) To say it quite clearly: It's not my favourite pastime to dedicate _so_ much attention to someone like you who is badmouthing VSL-staff again and again.

Obviously I don't understand what you're asking for (what's "pupitres? desk?" ...?) - or you don't understand what I'm answering.

Of course you can send submixes into MIR (... BTW: every ensemble available as Vienna Instrument is one, actually). Just make sure that you use one of the simplified "General Purpose"-profiles as soon as there is no dedicated Instrument Profile available. Depending on the signal and the chosen settings, the results will be pleasing most of the time, sometimes they will be just so-so, or (in rare cases) simply unusable.

Regards,

Ah, I simply misunderstood what you said in your post about dry and wet signals. Now that I read it with emphasis (in bold),

"...you would run into problems when mixing the wet _and the dry_ signals from different Venues." 

I understand that with "dry signals" you mean the dry part of the wet signal. In relation to this, the MIR Pro manual on page 52 says: "Using the Wet Solo button in the Output Channel you will hear no direct signals at all". To avoid confusion, when you press the "Dry Solo" button in MIR you will hear the direct signal. What causes confusion so often is that there are so many different words for these concepts: source, orginal, direct and dry signal, early reflections, late reflections, stage reflections, late reflections, tail....

Yet I agree completely, that is, if I do correctly understand you now ;-)  Indeed, mixing different sets of early reflections can throw our psychoacoustical localisation system in disarray, I experienced that before with all kinds of reverberators, as well as mixing multi-mic'ed live recordings, where carefully adjusting pre-delays can work wonders.

Well Cyril, perhaps it's not a 'very good idea' for you then, that's fine. Luckily for me, it's not a "MUST" to use MIR as you decree, and luckily for all of us the MIR Pro manual on page 51 and 52 attempts to instill a completely different attitude in the reader concerning the use of MIR. Just as MIRs tone and the tone of voice of your latest post are completely different. Well, probably you just had a bad day or whatever, nothing personal maybe, sorry about that. Anyway, thanks for starting the diagrams, it really helped to convey my idea better than I initially could, sincerely.

Bas, in case of MIR it's much simpler: You have a Dry component (this is the source signal in its chosen position on the stage), and you have the Wet component (that's the resulting room infomation, derived from the IRs recorded in that very position). That's all. The IRs of MIR's Venues don't contain any dry (or actually "direct") signal any more.

Apart from these first few milliseconds which are already cut, we don't plan to offer any kind of additional start-truncation - after all, the information contained in these first tens to hundreds of milliseconds is all that MIR's concept is about: localization. :-)

As a matter of fact, I was talking about the mixture of the readily positioned dry signals from two or more Venues which would mess things up.

BTW - you can shorten MIR's Venues already, but from the end, not from the beginning.

HTH,

Yes, we're on the same page, and now that I think about it, in 'real life' multi mic'ed recordings they never shave off the earliest or early reflections in the "first tens to hundreds of milliseconds", because they cannot, in 'real life' there is no start offset slider either ;-)

Good night, Dietz, thanks for all your help and thoughts.

Bas

@Dietz said:

YES, we are bad, Cyril. And YES, sometimes we don't answer posts around midnight anymore like I do now. (... see, again not a "NO" as an answer. *roll*) To say it quite clearly: It's not my favourite pastime to dedicate _so_ much attention to someone like you who is badmouthing VSL-staff again and again.

Hi Dietz

I am not badmouthing VSL staff, I have made many time congratulations on how clever your programmer are and how quickly you fix problems and how 

5 day ago I, on http://community.vsl.co.at/forums/p/31587/201124.aspx#201124

I said  : Thank again for the great thing VSL devellopers are doing, you are one of the rare company that solves the problems quickly and listen to his users

For "Pupitre" I have look into the dictionnary the answer is "desk" ! the strings a "pupitre " in French !

Sorry for my bad English.

best

Cyril

@Bas10 said:

Just as MIRs tone and the tone of voice of your latest post are completely different. Well, probably you just had a bad day or whatever, nothing personal maybe, sorry about that.

May be the solution Is I stop buying VSL products ! [;)]

I have always said MIR is a great product, it is very complex to manipulate and there are no song templates to help and all the manual is in English

When I ask with a lot of politness a question I dont get an answer. You just have to look in this thread, they have anwered all your question and not to mine

Another solution will be to provide a French manual  with song templates, there will be less posts.

I have send a lot of time speaking with users, sending them a song templates, sharing there screen using Ichat so they could use MIR PRO

Why stop at two mics?  For the case of Teldex wide venue I think it would be cool to have two outrigger mics to put in the from two corners to blend in.

MIR' whole concept is founded upon the principle of coincident ambisonics microphones - therefore no spaced outrigger mics. ;-)

Since my original post starting this thread, I am getting some pretty pleasing results with 3 and even 4 mic positions from MIR Pro. Dietz was indeed right about mixing the mutiple dry signals, so take care of activating "wet only" in the extra MIR instances. Mostly I take the dry signal from the conductor's or 7th row (or equivalent) position, the others all "wet only". One trick that allows me to blend the wet signals from different mic positions, or even different venues, without muddying up the mixed reverb signal, is tweaking some delay plug-ins, one for each "wet only" MIR. In fact this is close to the underlying idea of what Deutsche Grammohphon was doing with its legendary 3D and 4D CD recordings, sliding the multiple mic signals in time to optmize for clarity and localisation.

Karel warned for added latency using this approach. There's indeed some added latency, but nowhere near unworkable territory, at least for me, I am no drummer though, but I can still happily play Rachmaninov in a mutli-miced hall without latency issues. By the way, if you run your close staging the way you run a single VEpro+MIRpro instance and on top of that also output the instruments' (un-MIR-ed) direct signals to the DAW (not the MIR dry signals!), then you can bus those instrument signals from the DAW to the extra MIRs, in which case only those extra MIRs would have added latency in relation to the instruments' signals , which you can then incorporate again in the timing settings for the delay plug-ins mentioned above.