When Herrmann scored Citizen Kane in 1940/41 he had made quite a bit of contact with Charles Ives and indeed was responsible in some ways for bringing forth one of Ives forgotten works. So - when you listen to this part of the scoring from Citizen Kane , you will hear hommage to Ives within this section.

Incidentally, when you talk about film composers, please do me a favour. Don't talk about guys like Herrmann in the same space as guys like Zimmer. It's an insult. The Dark Knight - hahahah what a load of bollocks that film is.

Hi Dietz,

I didn't mean to be funny asking if you were around. I did it just because I was listening to North's 2001...

I hope you did not take it personally.

Talking about "freedom of speech", I'd never think that means to open my mouth (or type) and pour out abuse. I'm a man, not an "infernet" kid and I know my rights as well as my duties. If I say: "Criticism is there to be used to create a positive confrontation of ideas", it is said in a really "positive" way. I always respect everybody, because I'm sure that only doing so I'm able to respect myself.

Thank you anyway for your advice! I'll keep it in mind.

Hi Paul,

again, I'm not being funny but, if you read carefully my messages, you can clearly see my point of view about Mr. HZ.

To me, one of the last serious movies in movies history was: "Apocalypse now". I think I can't waste two hours of my life with "Dark Knight".

I never compared a real and complete musician like Herrmann with HZ, how could I? I'm quite sure HZ does not even know the rudiments of music.

Having said that, in my collection, all Herrmann's records are there. By HZ, not even a single one.

But most probably you were joking and taking the mickey out of me...

I've never read a message carefully in my life.

Your taste in films is neither here or there. Taste in films is merely a personal thing on a personal level. I gave up years ago talking about what people actually 'LIKE'. I have no interest what people like and don't expect anyone to have any interest in what I like. For some reason, most people are peasants. I can't work it out - but there it is. They can't seem to have an objective discussion about anything these days because they always revert to what they like. You might as well talk about their favourite colours. 

Objectivity (in this case film and film scoring - although you could include an array of things like placement, editing, acting, direction, photography, character development, script editing ec ect) comes through education, Without any kind of knowledge of a subject (i.e. films in general) all you will get is morons talking about what they like, generally going back about 10 years, if you're lucky. The very idea that you can make comparisons and use bench marks is completely redundant to these imbeciles. You might as well ask your pet.

On the other hand though, I'm not necessarily impressed by anyone's record collection either. I don't go in for that type of composer v. composer stuff. If people like Zimmers music because it's easy to understand or they can't write proper music themselves - or whatever the reason is - then that's great. You can't get round the fact that the world in general has gone to hell in a handcart and nothing is going to reverse that now. 

I own a copy of Sugar Sugar by The Archies btw.

@PaulR said:

I own a copy of Sugar Sugar by The Archies btw.

The Archies: Sugar, sugar /Greatest hits (P) 1997 Sleeping Giant Music International Limited?

I've got the same!

@Another User said:

You might as well ask your pet.

Messages like these are some of the main attractions of the VSL forum.

@Another User said:

You might as well ask your pet.

Messages like these are some of the main attractions of the VSL forum.

Thank you, William.

Also because, Paul, I haven't got a pet, but 6 cani da pastore Abruzzesi...

@Miki Mart said:

Extreme banality is his realm.

Also, quotes like this!  I love it.  A "realm."  A great choice of words, I must say. 

Did anyone actually listen to that piece by Herrmann from Citizen Kane. It's phenomenal when you consider it's for a film. It's so brilliant it's almost ludicrous. This is what I mean when you start to compare or start up about The Dark Knight.

Actually, if you're interested in that genre, then I would much prefer to watch....Watchmen.

But I would take Oh Mr Porter over any of this stuff. On a strictly 'because I like it' basis of course.

@PaulR said:

Did anyone actually listen to that piece by Herrmann from Citizen Kane. It's phenomenal when you consider it's for a film. It's so brilliant it's almost ludicrous. This is what I mean when you start to compare or start up about The Dark Knight.

Yes, it's the best. When I'm listening to film music away from a film, Herrmann is the go to choice. That said, the music in Dark Knight works perfectly well for that movie. But it's not great music and it's not a great movie. My favorite movies have no music at all (see the films of Michael Haneke, Czech cinema) or are directed by people who don't respect composers (see Terrence Malick, Stanley Kubrick). It's a complicated world.

 The score from Citizen Kane is as good as anything Herrmann did and it was his first movie score!  That blows me away.  His first score is for the movie generally called the greatest ever made.   And yet he went up from there.  

That's true about how many films don't even have or need a score.  For example - Bunuel and Tarkovsky both thought that music for films was not needed because the film should be doing whatever the music is doing. 

One thing I often notice is how when a scene has no scoring, it is more harshly realistic.  It can have an inhuman yet truthful quality.  Like a surveillance camera.  But when music comes in, someone is putting in an interpretation of emotion or ideas.  So a human element is added by the music.   it can be annoying when not needed.   But one could say it is an option.  Like art.  It is an option. 

One thing about Herrmann though, is that I never even once heard any score he did that seemed unnecessary.  It always fit in perfectly to the film scene.  In the case of Vertigo it is beautiful music on top of being perfect for the film.  But he did many scores that weren't particularly "beautiful" and yet they always fit what the film needed like a glove.  One of the greatest is "On Dangerous Ground." That film is a pretty good film noir, but worth watching mainly to hear how Herrmann scored it.  Incredible use of viola d'more in the lyrical scenes, and then the most ferocious scherzo-like showpiece in the "Death Hunt" cue with ff horns, anvil, very harsh scoring overall. 

More harshly realistic is dead right and it's a sort mechanism that a good director knows how to use to the advantage of the film. Like a surveillance camera is right.

That image that you just conjured in my mind immediately brought up a scene from 2001 by Kubrik. As a director, everyone knows by now he wasn't particularly enamoured with film score writers; thus music in Kubrik films was generally pre-written by someone like Handel etc.

But take that scene in 2001 when Bowman gets back into the ship and then sets about turning off HAL. No music - just breath noise - and it's almost like watching a home movie. Yet put music in there and you're immediately bollock'sd and you ruin the whole ambient nature of whats achieved by Kubrik. "I feel much better now - I really do"

Alien owes a lot to this scene.

 Yes that's true and it is talking about the whole nature about what film music does.  A famous example is Hitchcock didn't want to use any music in the shower scene in Psycho.  He wanted it to be totally horrifying so music would be an addition that would be too human.  But what does Herrmann do?  He came up with something that shocked even Hitchcock! 

But the Death Hunt cue shows how one can use music or not, and do something artistic or not.  As I said, an option.  Because what is that scene?  It is just a simple chase scene in the movie.  So a Zimmer score might have just some pads and rhythm tracks and it would be enough.  But Herrmann decided as an option to write a full-fledged orchestral scherzo.  You could do music that was just there, like Zimmer, or no music at all, but instead he decided to do something really elaborate.  And it was perfect.  So the "optional" aspect is taking an opportunity to do something really great, beyond what is the bare minimum.