Gesualdo - he is a fascinating composer.
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@Errikos said:
Remember everyone, the guy in my video makes over $2,000,000 a movie...
...and a man like Charles Edward Ives had to become an insurer to give his children a future,,,
"I cannot feed my children with dissonances..."
HZ should profoundly meditate about his freakish stupidity.
By the way, does he know what, zum bei spiel, forma sonata / fuga or fugato/ sinfonia (Bach Zeit) and so on and on and on...all mean?
I'm sure he ignores everything.
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Yes it's also important to know that Ives had to hire an orchestra personally, with the money from his insurance job, to perform his music. Not only the commercial establishment, but the classical music establishment, ignored him as much as was possible.
btw, Herrmann was a big fan of Ives and met with him very respectfully. A rare ocurrence for Herrmann. If he had been on this Forum, he would have shut down every single thread he contributed to. Trust me on that. He was the most extremely hostile bastard toward anything he disapproved of. Another reason I daily bow in the direction of my Herrmann CDs and LPs.
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@William said:
Yes it's also important to know that Ives had to hire an orchestra personally, with the money from his insurance job, to perform his music. Not only the commercial establishment, but the classical music establishment, ignored him as much as was possible.
btw, Herrmann was a big fan of Ives and met with him very respectfully. A rare ocurrence for Herrmann. If he had been on this Forum, he would have shut down every single thread he contributed to. Trust me on that. He was the most extremely hostile *** toward anything he disapproved of. Another reason I daily bow in the direction of my Herrmann CDs and LPs.
You're just right, mate! Had Herrmann been around, the other one (HZ) would be a barman somewhere...
Full respect for barmen!
Talking about a great soundtracks' composer, this morning I turned my turntable on and played (after a few years) some music by Juergen Knieper, who scored some Wim Wenders' movies. Simple, essential and great music, especially for "The american friend". Unthinkable nowadays such beautiful semplicity. Now, every single feature or tv film or anything else, sounds just exactly as you expect: virtual, false, usual, same.
This corruption started a few years ago. Nevertheless, no musically illiterate b++++++, years ago, would have entered the world of film music.
I can just think of one (late) exception: Vangelis. But, at least, he had a personal style.
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In the 40s studio era for example, one had to be an all around musical hand - being able to do an arrangement, flesh out a three stave manuscript, conduct a studio orchestra with a click track, compose new cues to existing scores, and after learning the ropes, finally get to do your own music. Not that I wish I had been a part of that era, since it was too controlled by the studios. But the music departments were staffed by incredibly talented people, many of them expatriots from Europe who were forced out by the war - traumatically for them, but to the great benefit of Hollywood. In that time hack work meant imitating Rachmaninoff, Tchaikovsky and Liszt. Now think about what is required merely to imitate those composers! It is a certain level of musical attainment that is actually quite impressive in itself. And that is the lowest level of composing one hears from the time. When you start talking about the greater achievements, in originality such as of course Herrmann but also Korngold, Tiomkin, Steiner, Rosza, Waxman - it is astounding, the general level of musicianship that existed.
Whom do you have to imitate today? Dwell on that question a few moments...
Scary. What we are talking about, pure and simple, is devolution. And people like Vibrato can accuse me of being an old fart talking about his past - BUT IT ISN'T MY PAST. I was never a part of any system like that. I am simply aware of it, which anyone can be simply by listening to a few recordings and watching some old movies. And it is disturbing to think of the difference in quality.
However, one does come across independent films with great music every now and then, so that is encouraging. That is the one area where film today gives some real opportunity that on occasion is actually greater than the studio era. Of course I don't know if you'll ever make a living on independent film scoring.
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Concerning insults, everytime I've tried to "call a spade a spade" about contemporary sondtracks and their way of being "composed", I've been (on many fora) attacked in any ways and called many names. When I claimed I really believe in "freedom of speech" and criticism is there to be used, to create a positive confrontation of ideas, there were no answers...
I've spent all my life studying (and I still do it) music and all its aspects: history, composition and conducting. Graduating years ago! I'm not a kid and I'm not an amateur. Am I allowed to speak frankly and give to my ideas some life?
Criticism is often "disturbing" just for those who cannot "read" things and dream about being the next HZ (and many others!) with the "one finger" stuff ready. Forget paper, pencil and a piano. Those were from the beginning and still are my main instruments, as well as for other people, I hope. The orchestra is "imagined" first on paper, then - why not?- since some new means are there, I record my music via computer and orchestral libraries. Still having to cope with frustration though, because what I imagine and write down is often far from what I can obtain with virtual instruments.
HZ's success generated the opposite: people assembling powerful computers in order to create "montages", absurdities of no meaning, because the way of "thinking" music is just killed. We're supposed to be the "optical race", always connected to some magnetic field...A foolish way of living. In addition to this, there's no creation in business, being the two terms -creation and business- incompatible nowadays. Maybe years ago, that was still possible, with very different people around though.
I'm listening to Alex North's 2001 (Dietz, are you around?) which was refused by Kubrick...
Other men, other times, other music (for movies, but still classy!)...
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Hi Miki Mart,
yes, I'm around. 😉
[...] Gossip and off-topic threads will be tolerated to a certain amount in this forum, as long as I don't get the feeling that things are getting out of hand. Don't tell me about "freedom of speech" then, because I represent absolute power here [;)] ... after all, this is a private forum. Let's make it a friendly web-hangout for brothers & sisters in mind. [...]
I think that's as clear as it can get.
Kind regards,
/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library -
When Herrmann scored Citizen Kane in 1940/41 he had made quite a bit of contact with Charles Ives and indeed was responsible in some ways for bringing forth one of Ives forgotten works. So - when you listen to this part of the scoring from Citizen Kane , you will hear hommage to Ives within this section.
Incidentally, when you talk about film composers, please do me a favour. Don't talk about guys like Herrmann in the same space as guys like Zimmer. It's an insult. The Dark Knight - hahahah what a load of bollocks that film is.
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Hi Dietz,
I didn't mean to be funny asking if you were around. I did it just because I was listening to North's 2001...
I hope you did not take it personally.
Talking about "freedom of speech", I'd never think that means to open my mouth (or type) and pour out abuse. I'm a man, not an "infernet" kid and I know my rights as well as my duties. If I say: "Criticism is there to be used to create a positive confrontation of ideas", it is said in a really "positive" way. I always respect everybody, because I'm sure that only doing so I'm able to respect myself.
Thank you anyway for your advice! I'll keep it in mind.
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Hi Paul,
again, I'm not being funny but, if you read carefully my messages, you can clearly see my point of view about Mr. HZ.
To me, one of the last serious movies in movies history was: "Apocalypse now". I think I can't waste two hours of my life with "Dark Knight".
I never compared a real and complete musician like Herrmann with HZ, how could I? I'm quite sure HZ does not even know the rudiments of music.
Having said that, in my collection, all Herrmann's records are there. By HZ, not even a single one.
But most probably you were joking and taking the mickey out of me...
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I've never read a message carefully in my life.
Your taste in films is neither here or there. Taste in films is merely a personal thing on a personal level. I gave up years ago talking about what people actually 'LIKE'. I have no interest what people like and don't expect anyone to have any interest in what I like. For some reason, most people are peasants. I can't work it out - but there it is. They can't seem to have an objective discussion about anything these days because they always revert to what they like. You might as well talk about their favourite colours.
Objectivity (in this case film and film scoring - although you could include an array of things like placement, editing, acting, direction, photography, character development, script editing ec ect) comes through education, Without any kind of knowledge of a subject (i.e. films in general) all you will get is morons talking about what they like, generally going back about 10 years, if you're lucky. The very idea that you can make comparisons and use bench marks is completely redundant to these imbeciles. You might as well ask your pet.
On the other hand though, I'm not necessarily impressed by anyone's record collection either. I don't go in for that type of composer v. composer stuff. If people like Zimmers music because it's easy to understand or they can't write proper music themselves - or whatever the reason is - then that's great. You can't get round the fact that the world in general has gone to hell in a handcart and nothing is going to reverse that now.
I own a copy of Sugar Sugar by The Archies btw.
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Did anyone actually listen to that piece by Herrmann from Citizen Kane. It's phenomenal when you consider it's for a film. It's so brilliant it's almost ludicrous. This is what I mean when you start to compare or start up about The Dark Knight.
Actually, if you're interested in that genre, then I would much prefer to watch....Watchmen.
But I would take Oh Mr Porter over any of this stuff. On a strictly 'because I like it' basis of course.
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@PaulR said:
Did anyone actually listen to that piece by Herrmann from Citizen Kane. It's phenomenal when you consider it's for a film. It's so brilliant it's almost ludicrous. This is what I mean when you start to compare or start up about The Dark Knight.
Yes, it's the best. When I'm listening to film music away from a film, Herrmann is the go to choice. That said, the music in Dark Knight works perfectly well for that movie. But it's not great music and it's not a great movie. My favorite movies have no music at all (see the films of Michael Haneke, Czech cinema) or are directed by people who don't respect composers (see Terrence Malick, Stanley Kubrick). It's a complicated world.
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The score from Citizen Kane is as good as anything Herrmann did and it was his first movie score! That blows me away. His first score is for the movie generally called the greatest ever made. And yet he went up from there.
That's true about how many films don't even have or need a score. For example - Bunuel and Tarkovsky both thought that music for films was not needed because the film should be doing whatever the music is doing.
One thing I often notice is how when a scene has no scoring, it is more harshly realistic. It can have an inhuman yet truthful quality. Like a surveillance camera. But when music comes in, someone is putting in an interpretation of emotion or ideas. So a human element is added by the music. it can be annoying when not needed. But one could say it is an option. Like art. It is an option.
One thing about Herrmann though, is that I never even once heard any score he did that seemed unnecessary. It always fit in perfectly to the film scene. In the case of Vertigo it is beautiful music on top of being perfect for the film. But he did many scores that weren't particularly "beautiful" and yet they always fit what the film needed like a glove. One of the greatest is "On Dangerous Ground." That film is a pretty good film noir, but worth watching mainly to hear how Herrmann scored it. Incredible use of viola d'more in the lyrical scenes, and then the most ferocious scherzo-like showpiece in the "Death Hunt" cue with ff horns, anvil, very harsh scoring overall.
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More harshly realistic is dead right and it's a sort mechanism that a good director knows how to use to the advantage of the film. Like a surveillance camera is right.
That image that you just conjured in my mind immediately brought up a scene from 2001 by Kubrik. As a director, everyone knows by now he wasn't particularly enamoured with film score writers; thus music in Kubrik films was generally pre-written by someone like Handel etc.
But take that scene in 2001 when Bowman gets back into the ship and then sets about turning off HAL. No music - just breath noise - and it's almost like watching a home movie. Yet put music in there and you're immediately bollock'sd and you ruin the whole ambient nature of whats achieved by Kubrik. "I feel much better now - I really do"
Alien owes a lot to this scene.
and for anyone that doesn't know the Death Hunt cue- here it is. Good luck with this one Trev! [:P]
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Yes that's true and it is talking about the whole nature about what film music does. A famous example is Hitchcock didn't want to use any music in the shower scene in Psycho. He wanted it to be totally horrifying so music would be an addition that would be too human. But what does Herrmann do? He came up with something that shocked even Hitchcock!
But the Death Hunt cue shows how one can use music or not, and do something artistic or not. As I said, an option. Because what is that scene? It is just a simple chase scene in the movie. So a Zimmer score might have just some pads and rhythm tracks and it would be enough. But Herrmann decided as an option to write a full-fledged orchestral scherzo. You could do music that was just there, like Zimmer, or no music at all, but instead he decided to do something really elaborate. And it was perfect. So the "optional" aspect is taking an opportunity to do something really great, beyond what is the bare minimum.
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P Paul moved this topic from Orchestration & Composition on
