VSL "realism" and idiomatic writing

[jbm]

Hello All,

I was just thinking about this whole issue of "making it sound real" with VSL, and it carried me right back to the whole question of idiomatic writing. It seems to me that, so long as you write a violin passage like a violin passage -- really phrasing it, and placing it on the instrument as though a violinist you greatly admire was going to read through it TOMORROW -- then it immediately sounds MUCH more realistic on VSL. I realize this probably seems obvious, but I'm absolutely conviced that it's true, and I often wonder whether some of the less satisfied VSL users are perhaps trying to make a violin or clarinet play something that is really written, in form and spirit, for some other instrument - most likely, just a general keyboard. I mean, a great musician can rescue this sort of writing, and manage to make it sound appropriate, but a sample library is not so clever!
Anyway, in connection with this idea, I wondered how likely it is that the composers who manage to get the most realistic performances out of the VSL are also composers who have, in fact, had their music performed by professional musicians? I certainly know that nothing wises you up to the above issue of idiomatic writing like being faced with a musician who finds your music poorly written for their instrument -- it's a painful, but highly effective learning experience.
Naturally, the mixing process is of enormous importance, and I've not had enough experience of that with VSL yet to really speak about it. But I wondered what peoples' thoughts might be on this essential issue.

J.

[Dietz]

I agree - and I'd like to add that the _phrasing_ seems to me even more important than the idiomatic writing. I heard so many sampled wind-indstruments being played without any time for breathing, strings with bows at least 5 meters long, not to talk about those sections suddenly augmenting from 14 to 42 players due to polyphonic programming .... 8-]

/Dietz

[William]

The use of realistic phrasing as Dietz points out is constantly being ignored by sample users. I think that you should actually emphasize phrasing more than live players do in order to address this issue. (For example, orchestral players will often attempt to hide where they are breathing as much as possible.) Also, the best performances using samples always emphasize the musical line in a natural way, with breaks and subtle dynamic and even intonation changes inherent in the instrument's playing style.

I would add that professional players are probably less useful in learning orchestration and how to write idiomatically than amateurs, because with an amateur orchestra you will hear every weakness in each instrument and not be fooled by awesome virtuosi who regularly overcome poor writing by ignorant composers. The same kind of virtuosi you hear in the VSL samples, whether users realize it or not. These performers are amazing in providing composers with perfection they will very rarely experience in live situations. Try getting 8 horns to play such perfect legatos as the Epic Horns on a normal basis. It isn't going to happen!

[Craig Sharmat]

I've had a day off today and have nothing better to do than sit and post on how I agree with this. It is spot on.

[jbm]

Hey William,

I see what you mean about amateurs vs professional players... though I wasn't necessarily thinking about actually hearing them play one's writing, but rather about hearing what they have to say about playing it. And also seeing what sorts of problems come up in rehearsal, and so on. They may not necessarily cause you to rewrite the piece, but the issues that come up do tend to stick in your mind for next time.
Also, there's all those little bits of magical secret information you get if you're so lucky as to pick up your part sheets after the performance or rehearsal -- pearls of wisdom beyond compare! That marginilia can be life-changing...

J.

[DG]

@William said:

I would add that professional players are probably less useful in learning orchestration and how to write idiomatically than amateurs, because with an amateur orchestra you will hear every weakness in each instrument and not be fooled by awesome virtuosi who regularly overcome poor writing by ignorant composers. The same kind of virtuosi you hear in the VSL samples, whether users realize it or not. These performers are amazing in providing composers with perfection they will very rarely experience in live situations. Try getting 8 horns to play such perfect legatos as the Epic Horns on a normal basis. It isn't going to happen!

This is a very good point. I learned to orchestrate from teachers and textbooks, but my most useful knowledge came from arranging for youth orchestras, as something that is easily playable tends to sound better than something that is possible, but tricky. Of course Rimsky-K makes this very clear in his treatise, but I didn't really take it in until I was faced with reality! Of course nowadays I am spoilt by having the best players most of the time, however as time is always short on a session, I always bear in mind the difficulty of the individual parts for the players.
Another point to remember is that writing for recordings is not necessarily the same as writing for the concert hall. For example, if I want to write a low Piccolo solo it can be balanced against any other instruments in the studio, but in the concert hall the orchestration has to be very transparent. I guess that this is another example of how composition has moved on since the days of purely "live" performances.

DG