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  4. CC7 versus CC11

  • CC7 versus CC11

    C
    C

    I am just finding out that in some libraries the volume control for the patch (CC7) and the expression control (CC11) can acually have two different results.  I wasn't actually aware of this fact until now.

    So with that in mind, Does the expression level affect the patch directly in a different way than automating the CC7 information at the patch level (for VSL products)?  Because if it does, then it seems it would be best to leave the CC7 alone once you have all sections balanced, perhaps balance everything with Expression levels at 64-96 so that you have room to swell, and room to diminuendo all your patches.  Then try to do all your work with the Expression slider for all volume changes (this is of course after you have driven the modwheel, or individually set your velocities).

    Thoughts?  Facts?  Meantime I will look at the manual of one of my instruments to see if this is clearly stated because it's not in the VI player manuals (that I seen).

    Thanks,

    Maestro2be 
  • A
    A

     I wasn't aware that CC7 or CC11 would give different results,  but form the original MIDI concept, CC7 was to set the initial volume (static) of an instrument and CC11 was used to vary the level during a performance (realtime). Which is why CC7 is volume and CC11 is expression. How ever this designation has been abused by many synths over the years.

    Can you give an example of a sound/librray that gives different results with CC7 or CC11
  • C
    C

    LASS gives different results based on those two parameters the owner and developers said.  This is a direct cut and paste from the post which was much larger.

    "CC11 is group-level modulator on the amplifier... so CC11 does things at the amp-level... CC7 works at the instrument level".  Then they go into how it responds differently to the LASS library.  The owner chimed in to tell us how he uses his samples, he says he never uses CC7 unless he needs to move the whole section down in volume in the final mix.  He does all of his fade ins and outs with CC11 only.  I am sorry I can't really past the whole thing as those forums are protected to people who have accounts and I don't want to risk getting myself or VSL in trouble for posting the words of the owners etc on a competitor site.

    This is the last post of that huge thread I will post.  This was the detailed explanation given by the owner which supports my above comments.

    "Good question.

    There are a couple of differences between CC11 and CC7. CC7 is a standard for Patch Volume. When you move CC7, you'll see the actual Volume slider on the Patch move in Kontakt. CC11 comes after CC7 in the "signal chain" so-to-speak. So if CC7 is very low, CC11 will allow you to further control volume in that limited range.

    Also, another difference (albeit a subtle one) is that CC11 has a different curve than CC7. I think it is a much more musical curve.

    The way I use CC7 and CC11 is I make all my volume fades with CC11... and if I want to do a general gain or trim... I use CC7.

    I hope this helps."

    Maestro2be
  • R
    R

    I think Garritan is the only library that doesn't use CC7 like everyone else.  I honestly can't remember what they have it do... timbre changes, or something.  I only remember it was so ridiculous that I put away the library and never used it again.  I would have to change my entire workflow for every piece I worked on.

    I also like to use CC7 as an overall static setting, with CC11 to do all my musical work. 

    However I do have a really basic question about Vienna Instruments.  What exactly is the volume slider for --- in the lower corner of each patch's window??  It is such a simple question, but the answer certainly isn't obvious to me.  Does anybody know what the best setting for it is?  That is, at what level would I get "unity gain", the most efficient setting for S/N ratio, etc?  I can't tell if I should simply set it halfway for each patch, or all the way up.  Suggestions?

    --- VSL user for ten years and I still don't get it all.
  • C
    C

    If you are talking about the original free VI Player, the volume slider in the bottom right corner IS the CC7 controller slider :).  the one directly next to the high notes on the piano keyboard correct?  If so, that's what it is.  If you touch it, it will tell you in the window it's the CC7 controller.

    Maestro2be 
  • B
    B
    Garritan doesn't use cc11, they use cc1 to control volume. In the Kontakt version, you have the option of turning on cc7 to additionally control volume.