Hi Julian

Well, I wrote directly to VSL too to ask for help on this issue. The answer I got back is one that I wasn't exactly surprised at. They are very proud of these samples, and I understand that - they should be! They really are the best piano samples out there, but they are adamant that they are the way they intended - that they are "perfect" because of all the imperfections that give it real "character". I got a long email telling me how much time and expertise went into acheiving them and such, and yes, I do understand that it's the imperfectness of any piano that gives it a realness, a character, but a note that drops in pitch when you depress the pedal? Hmmm.... it's obvious they don't really want to commit on this issue (and they offered me no further suggestions on how I might hide this annoyance). It seems they are happy to go with "for someones ear a specific sound is out of tune and for another person is exactly the same sound top notch".  So I have no choice but to find my own way around this problem.

Do you happen to hear the same issue I've mentioned? (as yet I haven't read of anyone else claiming to be bothered by it which has surprised me in all honesty)

John-Paul

@jpgandy said:

Do you happen to hear the same issue I've mentioned? (as yet I haven't read of anyone else claiming to be bothered by it which has surprised me in all honesty)

Well it's on my purchase list hence the interest.....  could you post a short audio of f5 followed by f5 pedal?

Best,

Julian

Hi Julian

here is a link to a short F5 comparison:

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?q5251jkmtrbpt29

I play F4 first followed by an F major chord so that you can easily attune yourself to the general pitch - then I add F5 without pedal, repeating it a few times before alternating sustain pedal down/up. I will stress that this is the only note with the whole sample-set where the pitch changes when the pedal is depressed, and quite honesty I can still highly recommend purchasing these wonderful samples. It really is just this one annoyance, and maybe it won't be a big deal to most (if you are using the piano blended with other instruments I'm sure that it wouldn't be as discernible as it is in it's naked form here!)

Hi John-Paul,

Thanks for posting the excerpt. I can hear a difference in "tail pitch" between the pedal up and down but to my ears at least the note pitch itself sounds the same (or extremly close) The effect is almost doppler like in that the initial note is followed by a reverberation at a lower pitch.

But this is what I would expect in that the pedalled F5 sample has all the piano strings vibrating so there should be a broader/deeper decay.

I just tried the same note on my Yamaha grand (real piano) and the effect was similar. Without hearing a comparison with the notes directly above and below it is impossible know if the F5 is unique in this respect.

I would say, to my ears at least, the excerpt you played does not distress my pitch nodes! but I do sympathise if it sticks out in your track.

Regards

Julian

To put it simple, we've had to choices:

1. Using the original recordings the way they are, to preserve the original character.

2. Flatten any imperfections and to take the risk, to edit the piano to death.

If we would have chosen scenario number 2, we wouldn't have a single posting in a forum, i'm sure. But would be such a Piano be also a better Piano? In my opinion, not at all!

It's not a question of being more careful and meticulous during the production process. The Vienna Imperial was our third virtual piano product in cooperation with the guy's from Bösendorfer and we decided, to follow a certain philosophy. OK, one could play a single key, with and without pedal and complain this philosophy is odd. Top notch? Annoyance? It's a fine line. What would you do in the middle of a piano concert, if F5 is beginning to sound a bit flat? Would you stop playing and quit the concert? Of course not. The audience would judge the music, the interpretation and the sound of the piano. That's what counts for me, even with a virtual piano.

The Vienna Imperial is the best result the whole VSL team - recording engineers, editors and software developers - could achieve at that time. We've chosen scenario number 1.

I'm aware, jpgandy is only looking for a solution for his problem and i have all deep respect for his postings. But i hope for your understanding for our point of view in this case.

All the best, Michael Hula

Vienna Symphonic Library

Hi Michael

Please be assured that I am not knocking your wonderful product at all (it's not stopping me from recommending them to anyone who asks me!), and maybe I've been unclear in my postings somewhat - I'm not worried at all that any notes might be slightly 'out of tune' because of course this is actually very natural tuning. Every single piano that I have ever played on (and believe me I'm playing on different ones every single week of my life) has it's own quirks and oddities. It's what makes them endearing and characterful (and occasionally frown-producing!) and all part of playing a real instrument. I'm not at all complaining that your samples are out of tune. It's just the obvious drop in pitch that occurs with F5 that I wanted to try and find an easy solution to cover the best I could. I also understand that since I'm primarily recording solo piano works that it's going to be a little more obvious too, and I have to be honest and say that I don't notice it that much in all the pieces I've recorded - but in any piece where there are multiple F5s following each other it is very noticeable to my ears, and I've also played them to a few musician friends with good ears who can also clearly hear the change in pitch (otherwise, I can attest that no-one has been able to tell straight-off that it's not a real piano!). Honestly, I'm so glad you didn't muck about with the samples to make them "perfect" - believe me, I truly love the sound you acheived. I just have a personal discord with this one issue (sorry!), but at least I know too that it's not impossible to adjust it myself to my aural pleasure. I guess I just hoped there might be an easier way of satisfying my reservations! You can be rest assured that I'll find a way since I have no intentions of using any other piano samples at this juncture!! Really, thank you. You've opened up recording possibilties for me that, financially, I would not be able to acheive otherwise.

many thanks again,

John-Paul

 Thank you for your reply and you nice words, John-Paul, i really appreciate it!

All the best, Michael Hula

Feature request.

I don't own this particular sample set yet, but am considering it very seriously.  However this particular issue has me on the wrong side of the fence.  I have to concur with the original poster that the samples for F5 are too far out of tune.  So I'd like to request a feature enhancement for the player.  

I note that the most recent version of the player has added the ability to EQ each individual key.  I'm guessing this was done in response to user requests and/or a criticism in reviews that I've seen elsewhere.  

So how about per key tuning?  You already have all the technology needed in VI Pro2 stretch and render feature.  You just need to apply that capability to this player and do it on a per key basis.  

This way one can fix issues that are particular to their taste.  I am generally in agreement with the approach taken for this sample set and that some imperfections can be a good thing.  But when my acoustic piano goes too far out of tune, at least I can call a guy and get it fixed.

 Hi dbudde,

thanks for your input. The Vienna Imperial engine is heavely optimised and specialised for piano playback performances. No tuning corrections are done inside the playback core engine. The engine itself is a unique developement and based on a complete different core engine than VI  or VI PRO.

This enables better playback performance and higher sonic quality, because no pitching or resampling has to be calculated in realtime. The obvious restriction in that case: there are no tuning options availabe.

best

Herb

Herb,

Thanks for your response.  But I think you misunderstand my request.  I understand this capability does not exist in the current player.  This is a request for a future version of the player.  And, I am not asking for real time pitching or resampling.  Only the ability to tune a note and render it to a sample that can be mapped to replace the existing samples for that note.  Rendering to be done not in real time of course.  

Barring that capability, I'd like to request that you fix the F5 samples because, based on the audio expample I heard posted earlier in this thread, they really are too far out of tune.

@jpgandy said:

Do you mind explaining a bit more about this Logic environment set-up you have in mind? Maybe it'll help me find the equivalent in Pro Tools 

Hello John-Paul,

As far as I know, the environment possibilities are really special and unique within logic.

So I guess that option is a dead duck.

What you can do with your midi-recording is:

1) Extract the pedal-down F5's to another midi-track.

2) Copy the pedal down/-up midi-controller-events as well to that second track.

3) Sent these F5's and pedal down/-up events to a second instance of the Imperial, which you fine-tune to your desire.

(Of course, the imperial has to be able to be fine-tuned [:|])

The extracting and copying-operations can very likely be taken over by ProTools (so you don't have to extract every single note/ midi-event by hand) - of course you would have to give ProTools the corresponding commands [;)])

Yet: The extracting of the F5's might be a little tricky, hence you'd only want to extract (and fine-tune) the pedal-down F5's and not all F5's.

That's the best solution I can think of for your sequencer.

Good luck,

Sebastian

Thanks Sebastian! I'll certainly give your suggestion a try.

Thank you again for all your helpful input regarding this particular issue. I really appreciate it.

Best wishes,

John-Paul

Hello John-Paul,

thank you for your thank you.

There is one thing that might get in the way of my suggested workaround:

When you hit a key on the Vienna Imperial and, while that key is still down, change from pedal up to pedal down: does the sound change in any way?

With a real grand piano in that situation the sound deepens since the now un-dampered strings of the other keys start to resonate.

I'd guess VSL has thought of that and incorporated some sort of blending/x-fading in that situation.

So, do you hear any change of sound when you switch between pedal up/ down while a key is down?

And, if yes, how does that change effects the F5 in question?

Sebastian

Hi Sebastian

Sorry for the late reply to your question. No, there isn't an audible change in sound that I can hear if I've hit a key without pedal and then depress/raise the pedal after. It's a good point you've raised compared to a real piano, but at least it'll make my personal customisation that little bit less complicated!

Many thanks again.

best wishes,

John-Paul

Hi Herb and dbudde,

I'm very happy that you wrote this post dbudde. Last week, my (real) grandpiano was tuned. As my piano techncian is very very good (one of the best in Canada), I asked him to listen to my Vienna Imperial (virtual) piano. He was impressed by the sound quality and timbral richness. But he suggested that someone tune that piano in the F5 region…

Will a fix be possible, Herb?

Thanks a lot.

CB

Hello John-Paul,

@jpgandy said:

No, there isn't an audible change in sound that I can hear if I've hit a key without pedal and then depress/raise the pedal after. John-Paul

 good news for the workaround.

I spent some weeks on the countryside, just walking, breathing and playing the piano (a somewhat detuned, but real piano).

I now know that I'd like to return to real instruments and real people, finding that, the closer I come to imitate instruments and musicians by computers the more I realize, I'll never reach them - at least not with having the same sweet flow I get in the real world - and for that flow I am willing to accept flaws.

So, the question is how to draw back. And within what time. What to leave, what to take with me.

I'll leave some final thoughts, comments and some sort of present regarding a workaround:

1) You could check whether ProTools offers real-time midi-controllers/converters.

If yes, what you do manually after a recording you could instruct ProTools to do in real time with those midi-controllers/converters.

That's the basic concept of Logic's environment: To set up controllers/transformers which manipulate the incoming and outgoing midi-stream.

2) You could give the last Windows version of Logic (5.5.1) a try.

I composed a workaround for Logic which works in real time and requires no editing of the recorded track.

I created and tested this workaround on Logic Windows 5.5.1.

See http://community.vsl.co.at/forums/p/31305/199407.aspx#199407 for details.

Sebastian

P.S.:

Some notes on the Windows-version of Logic:

In most PC configurations one would use Logic only as a midi-sequencer; that means you'd need another program (in your case e.g. ProTools) to record audio data and to host Software-Instruments which would be played by Logic.

A connection between Logic and ProTools would be established by virtual Midi cables like "Maple Midi Tools".

Hi John-Paul                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     I honestly can't believe that there's only a handful of pianists who recognise the fault with F5 -- I find it sticks out like a sore thumb. Just thought I'd give you guys some support, I figure the more people talk about it the more chance there is of getting it fixed.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       Chris              

I second. And - after reading the whole thread - i am surprized by the ignorance of the - in all other instances I could remember so helpful and understanding - VSL Team.

Some natural and therefore desired imperfections? Come on, michi & Herb. It is obvious that most of the pedal-down f5 samples (the tuning is indeed ok at high velocities) were recorded during a different recording session than the dry f5 and the piano tuner for the later session did a bad job on this particular key. This is nothing to be ashamed of, but also nothing one should defend as deliberate feature.

I am officially asking for a library update with this note corrected.

Capturing the imperfections of the instrument is one thing, but I've never come across a piano where the tuning changes when the sustain pedal is used ;)