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Sean - you're guilty of speed reading. The problem isn't exactly the dongles, it's VSL's lack of warning about the very high replacement costs, and their 2 year warranty, which they don't make clear.
VSL just need to tell people more clearly that's all. It's not a dongle moan.
I think most of us agree with you, that you have the right to protect your property. but, does that right include to take property from others away just to prove that you want to protect your property?
for me, as a user a protection theme is good, if it does not bring additional costs, does not cause trouble and if I am do not have to take responsibility for malfunctioning of the copy protection.
for the syncrosoft key in combination with VSL it is the opposite for all three aspects. Wow. So, as a honest user you have to take over responsibility for all the bad things that can happen - just because the world is not ideal for software developers and sound designers. If the copy protection is not as effective to have a reasonable replace policy for honest customers, My personal feeling is - there is something wromg with this system. (now, one can discussion what is reasonable, but, just count your licenses and multiply it by 20 and you can decide for yourself)
I also cannot see that the whole industrie is moving in that direction. Waves, Logic, Korg and Yellowtools got ride of a dongle. So do SPL, Brainworks etc, with Plugin Alliance. also PSP got rid off the dongle. If you refering to the Steinberg surroundings, ok, there you might be correct, but that is far from the whole industry IMHO.
The non-communication is just ... well, normally in such situation silence does not do too much good. we will see were this leads.
I just prdered a new dongle, the old one did not show any symptoms ... well, maybe Greempeace should send Steinberg and VSL some document for really wasteful usage of resources and energy due to such policies.
best
@dagmarpiano said:
Sean - you're guilty of speed reading. The problem isn't exactly the dongles, it's VSL's lack of warning...
I can appreciate the warning point completely. I prefer effective policy and to me, open, honest, and as informative as possible are the way to go. So VSL clarifying something in anyway that improves communication about dongles is a good thing to me. It wasn't so much me speed reading but I was referring to the statements of "they need to rethink strategy" or that it's "disturbing" that they haven't replied. To me, this is a relevant issue, but I think it's being dramatized just slightly. I also like to voice the opinion that "I don't think VSL will reply or necessarily should feel obligated to" in order to prevent a 30 page thread just about VSL not replying... I tend to find such threads unproductive. If this thread were more about actual suggestions that help VSL and users- I'm all for it. I'm not any sort of moderator obviously, I just think VSL has some validity with dongles and as they won't post their position... I just offer another friendly viewpoint.
-Sean
This should cover all eventualities.
BTW you can't copy licences; you can only transfer them
DG
Hi Cesare,
What VSL product do you own ?
They did charge you 1500euro for a broken dongle !!!!
Take a lawyer, this is not legal in most of the countries !
I am with you, because with all the libs I own, the bill could be the same !
@Christian Marcussen said:
I too would be furious if I had to go through all the above and if I understand correctly - pay €20 per licence. Furious.
When did the fee change to €20 per license? A few years ago I lost my USB dongle during a move. It just had the licenses for SE and SE+. I bought a new dongle and emailed VSL asking them to send my new licenses. They told me they don't have anyway to replace lost licenses, but out of the goodness of their hearts they would sell me new licenses for $500! This was half of the retail price. I tore my entire house apart and luckily after over a week found my dongle and it now never leaves my studio.
I think VSL just makes up their replacement policies as they go, and it's because of this BS that I haven't bought the cube yet. And, since it doesn’t look like they are going to be changing their replacement policy, I'm starting to look at other companies products.
Hi Cesare,
What VSL product do you own ?
They did charge you 1500euro for a broken dongle !!!!
Take a lawyer, this is not legal in most of the countries !
I am with you, because with all the libs I own, the bill could be the same !
It wasn't me it was dagmarpiano. I guess he probably owns (well... "owned"...or better "owns but cannot use") a lot of download librairies (he had 64 licenses in total). If you were to pay 20 euros per license, download licenses will make the bill explode! 20 euros is almost the original download-instrument price.
I am counting: with 8 licenses my bill would be around 200/250 euros once my dongle will die. Another hundreds of euros for not being prevented from using a software that I have already have payed for. Not a new version, not an update, the exact same one! And I know that the dongle will brake (mine has got a small crack already). All devices produced now days have a planned life-cycle (it's called planned obsolecence).
It incredible! This license system is just a very, very well planned policy to constantly get money from costumers by otherwise threatening them that they will not being able to use the products they've bought. It has got nothing to do with copy protection or helping users or bla bla bla, it is just a form of indirect tax that sooner or later every user ends up payng, unless he/she keeps the dongle in a vault.
I keep wondering how I ended up spending thousands of euros (months of wage!!!) to find myself in this outrageous policy. I was 26 when I bought my first Vienna Library and I got it with the money I save from my PhD fellowship. I was soo excited when it arrived, now I so regret it! Ok, it has been a lesson of life: now I am am extremely careful, before buying software, that it does not involve the use of a dongle. But you can never know all the conditions. In the case of Vienna they simply do not inform people. I just feel scammed.
Cesare
Mike, you are right it was andyjh who owns 64 licenses, I mixed the names. But imagine that you have 60 licenses on your key like he does/did. 60*20 = 1200 plus the price of a new key, plus the secured shipping etc. It's a month wage to replace a dongle which broke! It's not going on holidays because of a policy that you could not have known about because nobody informed you, it is not written anywhere. It is arbitrary and scary. It is like one month of morgage, that you have to pay just because otherwise you won't be put in the condition of using the licenses your already own. And note that the new product line (the many download instruments, the fragmented SE, which alone can include a dozen of license, i.e. around 300 euros of replacements in case of dongle failure) seems to go torward users having more and more licenses stored on their keys.
This is simply not fair.
Cesare
This is simply not fair.
Cesare
Yes, I was going to buy Vienna Suite, I will wait until they find a solution
Dear All,
We use the licensing and copy protection system of eLicenser (www.elicenser.net, owned by Steinberg/Yamaha), which is also being used successfully by other companies in our industry, such as Steinberg or Arturia.
eLicenser USB keys, such as our ViennaKey, have a two year warranty. This means that if a key breaks within the warranty period without extraneous cause, the user gets a new ViennaKey and the new license(s) free of charge. That's why we recommend to renew your eLicenser USB key every two years to be protected against malfunction.
If a user damaged the key, or if the warranty has expired, the user will of course have to pay for a new ViennaKey. Also, as mentioned by some users here in this thread, we have to charge a handling fee for the replacement license (EUR 20 per contained license). This is necessary as we ourselves also have to pay eLicenser for every replacement license we issue. As this was asked in this thread as well, our DVD Collections, e.g., Woodwinds I, consists of one license, no matter if you have the Standard Library or the Full Library (=Standard and Extended Library).
In case a lot of licenses are stored on a broken key, we will try to find a solution with the customer on a case by case basis.
I’d also like to emphasize that with eLicenser it is currently NOT possible to disable a license via remote. Disabling licenses via remote is not only a technical issue, but also a legal one, as it's not clear if we or eLicenser have the right to disable licenses.
The situations regarding a lost or broken ViennaKey are also explained in our Terms of License (§5 and §6) which every user has accepted when installing our software.
Many of our professional users don't have internet access on their audio workstations, in order to be protected against viruses and/or unauthorized data access, so we need to use a copy protection system that also works offline. However, this also means that whoever steals or finds a lost key can use the contained license(s) without any restrictions, if he or she also has access to the samples, e.g., from a friend.
I hope you can see and understand that we’re not trying to fool our users. But we HAVE to prevent possible fraud if we want to keep this company alive. This includes that it is not possible to replace licenses for free if a user has lost (or claims to have lost) his key, and also that we cannot discuss some specific issues publicly in our forum as we cannot provide instructions on how to best outwit our copy protection system to steal licenses or, in other words, “organize a second set of licenses for a friend”.
Best,
Stefan
@Stefan said:
I’d also like to emphasize that with eLicenser it is currently NOT possible to disable a license via remote. Disabling licenses via remote is not only a technical issue, but also a legal one, as it's not clear if we or eLicenser have the right to disable licenses.
Can't you solve this point?
[quote=Stefan]
The situations regarding a lost or broken ViennaKey are also explained in our Terms of License (§5 and §6) which every user has accepted when installing our software.
Hey, it looks like our posts are achieving something. It is extremely generic and confused information but it is at least a bit of information. In the Terms and Conditions I got when purchasing the library there was simply ABSOLUTELY NOTHING on this topic.
[quote=Stefan]
Many of our professional users don't have internet access on their audio workstations, in order to be protected against viruses and/or unauthorized data access, so we need to use a copy protection system that also works offline. However, this also means that whoever steals or finds a lost key can use the contained license(s) without any restrictions, if he or she also has access to the samples, e.g., from a friend.
This is YOUR choice of copy protection and does not need to be like that. You choose a copy protection system of this kind which puts ALL the preassure (loss, damage, stolen) on the costumers. It is a CHOICE don't make it sound as something unavoidable. Change licesing system if you see it does not work. You can think of proposing and implementing several options, for those who are connected. It is by far NOT impossible.
It is also incredible that with the massive amount of torrent going on (and the key has already been broken), your main concern is that we are dishonest and want to spread licenses among our friends. First of all, if I wanted to find these or other libraries illegally, I would have no problem doing it. Second my friends would not even now what to do with this software. We, your costumers, BOUGHT this products to support this industry, you and the musical industry, but honesly you are making me regret this decision. This is a true paradox!
As a costumer the approach of Vienna to this problem is simply extremely frustrating. No real detailed information and no action of any sort.
Cesare
@Stefan said:
Many of our professional users don't have internet access on their audio workstations, in order to be protected against viruses and/or unauthorized data access, so we need to use a copy protection system that also works offline. However, this also means that whoever steals or finds a lost key can use the contained license(s) without any restrictions, if he or she also has access to the samples, e.g., from a friend.
Hello Stefan,
I dont think that this is a good arguement, I am sure that we could plug your elicenser key every 4 month to have it checked, you have to connect to upgrade VI pro and VE pro every so often.
It is not the user that has already spend a lot of euro to buy your product that should have to pay the cost of the copy protection
For user that have a lot of downloaded instruments you should find a solution, so there multiple license goes to one licence, one for the brass, one for the winds
How will it cost me if my key get stolen ? I have 99 % of the downloaded instruments !!!!!!!
Anyway your license is agains European laws !
You must find a solution
Best
Cyril
@Stefan said:
I’d also like to emphasize that with eLicenser it is currently NOT possible to disable a license via remote. Disabling licenses via remote is not only a technical issue, but also a legal one, as it's not clear if we or eLicenser have the right to disable licenses.
The situations regarding a lost or broken ViennaKey are also explained in our Terms of License (§5 and §6) which every user has accepted when installing our software.
Stefan, forgive me for piling on, but your terms of license #6 states:
6. Loss of the ViennaKey
Vienna Symphonic Library GmbH assumes no liability or obligation if the ViennaKey or any other eLicenser USB protection device holding one or more Vienna Symphonic Library Licenses is mislaid as a result of loss, theft or otherwise. Vienna Symphonic Library GmbH reserves the right to block its Licenses saved on the lost ViennaKey or on any other lost USB eLicenser upon being notified by the registered user of the loss. Lost or stolen Licenses cannot be replaced free of charge by Vienna Symphonic Library GmbH.
So, as ENGLISH is my first language, what am I missing?
@cesare.italy said:
[quote=Stefan]
Many of our professional users don't have internet access on their audio workstations, in order to be protected against viruses and/or unauthorized data access, so we need to use a copy protection system that also works offline. However, this also means that whoever steals or finds a lost key can use the contained license(s) without any restrictions, if he or she also has access to the samples, e.g., from a friend.
This is YOUR choice of copy protection and does not need to be like that. You choose a copy protection system of this kind which puts ALL the preassure (loss, damage, stolen) on the costumers. It is a CHOICE don't make it sound as something unavoidable. Change licesing system if you see it does not work. You can think of proposing and implementing several options, for those who are connected. It is by far NOT impossible.
I shall provide everyone here with an education...
1. some people steal software
2. some companies try to prevent it
3. the good people suffer
It is completely reasonable that they have every right to protect their property, hardwork, and potential future jobs they've invested in, even if it inconveniences people. After all, you don't have to buy it, use it, or complain about it when the initial choices leading to such disatisfaction was the consumers (yours) to make, not the company we buy from. And if you still want to blame VSL anyway, to put the burden of responsibility on the party making the first choice causing this problem to begin with, you cannot reasonably attribute such blame to VSL when considering the fact that the real problem is theft, not counter-measures. People who defend themselves against an attacker may not make perfectly thought out counter-actions and may cause some problems in doing so. I still believe if blame is assigned, it is only appropriate to assign it to the initial attacker. I believe the people complaining about VSL are... less than reasonable (to put it kindly).
1. you have a 2 year renewal option, outlined clearly or not, use it or deal with your lack of careful consideration of where you invest your money and how you protect those purchases.
2. VSL isn't to blame for replacement license fees when they are not the one responsible for those fees existence (see Steinburg and pirates first to assign your blame).
3. VSL, please consider making some sort of "License protection: simplified" page in the User Area. This way people will have a clear place to go to protect themselves, not to blame you as you aren't responsible for this problem, and so you will yet do one more thing as best as the industry gets (that is, explaining for people how and what they should do to protect themselves from... themselves) [A]
-Sean
Iscorefilm,
I suspect you assume people actually read license agreements, before making their purchase.
While recommended, it could just be bad for business.
Could scare VSL customers away.
I particularly like the part about you and only you, may use your Vienna Symphonic Library.
Worst case scenario you've spent 14,000 US dollars on your Vienna Instruments, and only you may use them.
So I know this studio owner, we'll call him Mike.
He has a studio neighbor, we'll call him Steve.
One day Steve drops by while Mike is fooling around with VSL.
Steve, having great great ears, likes what he hears.
Mike tells him it's software.
Steve asks if he may give it a try?
What would you do?
I know what Mike did...
Iscorefilm, I don't know which came first: Stealing Software or Unreasonable License Agreements.
But I do hope you score alone, as no one else is allowed to touch your VSL.
Dear iscorefilm,
I would agree with you if Vienna had written a clear policy of what using the key meant:
- wrote CLEARLY about the dongle warranty problem (where is it written on their website???)
- wrote CLEARLY how much restoring each license will cost once the dongle brakes
- wrote CLEARLY how much restoring each license will cost once the dongle is lost/stolen
i.e. if it had been a clear and responsible company. But they now that if any of us had read those clear condition more than half of us, and definitely most non-pros would NOT have bought their product. And look at their offer right now, they keep speaking about professionals, but they target more and more non professional with the SE and dowload offer which is becoming their primary market.
That is why the do not write any of this information. On the original Terms and Conditions there was no point 5 or 6, there was simply NOTHING no information of any sort. These points have been added because of our complaining posts, I have the email in which they admit that. Despite this, points 5 adn 6 are everything but clear! I can send you a copy of the origibal terms and conditions if you do not believe this. They are simply making up the rules as they go and they always make them to the costumer disadvantage. They know that none of us has the time or willingness to take a lawyer, but this behavior is reallly at the edge of correctness.
Cesare
It is month we are asking VSL to find a solution, but it is like talking to deaf and dumb.
I just ask to my insurance company to add the "juridical aid" to my house insurance [:'(]
I wish I will not have to use it, but now I am covered !
Best
Cyril
