Dear All,

We use the licensing and copy protection system of eLicenser (www.elicenser.net, owned by Steinberg/Yamaha), which is also being used successfully by other companies in our industry, such as Steinberg or Arturia.

eLicenser USB keys, such as our ViennaKey, have a two year warranty. This means that if a key breaks within the warranty period without extraneous cause, the user gets a new ViennaKey and the new license(s) free of charge. That's why we recommend to renew your eLicenser USB key every two years to be protected against malfunction.

If a user damaged the key, or if the warranty has expired, the user will of course have to pay for a new ViennaKey. Also, as mentioned by some users here in this thread, we have to charge a handling fee for the replacement license (EUR 20 per contained license). This is necessary as we ourselves also have to pay eLicenser for every replacement license we issue. As this was asked in this thread as well, our DVD Collections, e.g., Woodwinds I, consists of one license, no matter if you have the Standard Library or the Full Library (=Standard and Extended Library).

In case a lot of licenses are stored on a broken key, we will try to find a solution with the customer on a case by case basis.

I’d also like to emphasize that with eLicenser it is currently NOT possible to disable a license via remote. Disabling licenses via remote is not only a technical issue, but also a legal one, as it's not clear if we or eLicenser have the right to disable licenses.

The situations regarding a lost or broken ViennaKey are also explained in our Terms of License (§5 and §6) which every user has accepted when installing our software.

Many of our professional users don't have internet access on their audio workstations, in order to be protected against viruses and/or unauthorized data access, so we need to use a copy protection system that also works offline. However, this also means that whoever steals or finds a lost key can use the contained license(s) without any restrictions, if he or she also has access to the samples, e.g., from a friend.

I hope you can see and understand that we’re not trying to fool our users. But we HAVE to prevent possible fraud if we want to keep this company alive. This includes that it is not possible to replace licenses for free if a user has lost (or claims to have lost) his key, and also that we cannot discuss some specific issues publicly in our forum as we cannot provide instructions on how to best outwit our copy protection system to steal licenses or, in other words, “organize a second set of licenses for a friend”.

Best,

Stefan

@Stefan said:

I’d also like to emphasize that with eLicenser it is currently NOT possible to disable a license via remote. Disabling licenses via remote is not only a technical issue, but also a legal one, as it's not clear if we or eLicenser have the right to disable licenses.

Can't you solve this point?

[quote=Stefan]

The situations regarding a lost or broken ViennaKey are also explained in our Terms of License (§5 and §6) which every user has accepted when installing our software.

Hey, it looks like our posts are achieving something. It is extremely generic and confused information but it is at least a bit of information. In the Terms and Conditions I got when purchasing the library there was simply ABSOLUTELY NOTHING on this topic.

[quote=Stefan]

Many of our professional users don't have internet access on their audio workstations, in order to be protected against viruses and/or unauthorized data access, so we need to use a copy protection system that also works offline. However, this also means that whoever steals or finds a lost key can use the contained license(s) without any restrictions, if he or she also has access to the samples, e.g., from a friend.

This is YOUR choice of copy protection and does not need to be like that. You choose a copy protection system of this kind which puts ALL the preassure (loss, damage, stolen) on the costumers. It is a CHOICE don't make it sound as something unavoidable. Change licesing system if you see it does not work. You can think of proposing and implementing several options, for those who are connected. It is by far NOT impossible.

It is also incredible that with the massive amount of torrent going on (and the key has already been broken), your main concern is that we are dishonest and want to spread licenses among our friends. First of all, if I wanted to find these or other libraries illegally, I would have no problem doing it. Second my friends would not even now what to do with this software. We, your costumers, BOUGHT this products to support this industry, you and the musical industry, but honesly you are making me regret this decision. This is a true paradox!

As a costumer the approach of Vienna to this problem is simply extremely frustrating. No real detailed information and no action of any sort.

Cesare

@Stefan said:

Many of our professional users don't have internet access on their audio workstations, in order to be protected against viruses and/or unauthorized data access, so we need to use a copy protection system that also works offline. However, this also means that whoever steals or finds a lost key can use the contained license(s) without any restrictions, if he or she also has access to the samples, e.g., from a friend.

Hello Stefan,

I dont think that this is a good arguement, I am sure that we could plug your elicenser key every 4 month to have it checked, you have to connect to upgrade VI pro and VE pro every so often. 

It is not the user that has already spend a lot of euro to buy your product that should have to pay the cost of  the copy protection

For user that have a lot of downloaded instruments you should find a solution, so there multiple license goes to one licence, one for the brass, one for the winds

How will it cost me if my key get stolen  ? I have 99 % of the downloaded instruments !!!!!!!

Anyway your license  is agains European laws ! 

You must find a solution 

Best

Cyril

@Stefan said:

I’d also like to emphasize that with eLicenser it is currently NOT possible to disable a license via remote. Disabling licenses via remote is not only a technical issue, but also a legal one, as it's not clear if we or eLicenser have the right to disable licenses.

The situations regarding a lost or broken ViennaKey are also explained in our Terms of License (§5 and §6) which every user has accepted when installing our software.

Stefan, forgive me for piling on, but your terms of license #6 states:

6. Loss of the ViennaKey

Vienna Symphonic Library GmbH assumes no liability or obligation if the ViennaKey or any other eLicenser USB protection device holding one or more Vienna Symphonic Library Licenses is mislaid as a result of loss, theft or otherwise. Vienna Symphonic Library GmbH reserves the right to block its Licenses saved on the lost ViennaKey or on any other lost USB eLicenser upon being notified by the registered user of the loss. Lost or stolen Licenses cannot be replaced free of charge by Vienna Symphonic Library GmbH.

So, as ENGLISH is my first language, what am I missing?

1. If you reserve the right to block lost or stolen licenses, how are you able to do this if not remotely?
2. Are you saying that blocking licenses does not prevent the lost or stolen key from being used?
3. Then what exactly does blocking a license do?

@cesare.italy said:

[quote=Stefan]

Many of our professional users don't have internet access on their audio workstations, in order to be protected against viruses and/or unauthorized data access, so we need to use a copy protection system that also works offline. However, this also means that whoever steals or finds a lost key can use the contained license(s) without any restrictions, if he or she also has access to the samples, e.g., from a friend.

This is YOUR choice of copy protection and does not need to be like that. You choose a copy protection system of this kind which puts ALL the preassure (loss, damage, stolen) on the costumers. It is a CHOICE don't make it sound as something unavoidable. Change licesing system if you see it does not work. You can think of proposing and implementing several options, for those who are connected. It is by far NOT impossible.

I shall provide everyone here with an education...

1. some people steal software

2. some companies try to prevent it

3. the good people suffer

It is completely reasonable that they have every right to protect their property, hardwork, and potential future jobs they've invested in, even if it inconveniences people. After all, you don't have to buy it, use it, or complain about it when the initial choices leading to such disatisfaction was the consumers (yours) to make, not the company we buy from. And if you still want to blame VSL anyway, to put the burden of responsibility on the party making the first choice causing this problem to begin with, you cannot reasonably attribute such blame to VSL when considering the fact that the real problem is theft, not counter-measures. People who defend themselves against an attacker may not make perfectly thought out counter-actions and may cause some problems in doing so. I still believe if blame is assigned, it is only appropriate to assign it to the initial attacker. I believe the people complaining about VSL are... less than reasonable (to put it kindly).

1. you have a 2 year renewal option, outlined clearly or not, use it or deal with your lack of careful consideration of where you invest your money and how you protect those purchases.

2. VSL isn't to blame for replacement license fees when they are not the one responsible for those fees existence (see Steinburg and pirates first to assign your blame).

3. VSL, please consider making some sort of "License protection: simplified" page in the User Area. This way people will have a clear place to go to protect themselves, not to blame you as you aren't responsible for this problem, and so you will yet do one more thing as best as the industry gets (that is, explaining for people how and what they should do to protect themselves from... themselves) [A]

-Sean

Iscorefilm,

I suspect you assume people actually read license agreements, before making their purchase.

While recommended, it could just be bad for business.

Could scare VSL customers away.

I particularly like the part about you and only you, may use your Vienna Symphonic Library.

• No, your music business partners may not use your VSL.
• No, your children may not use your VSL.
• No, your best friend who happens to be a better keyboardist than you, may not touch your VSL.

Worst case scenario you've spent 14,000 US dollars on your Vienna Instruments, and only you may use them.

So I know this studio owner, we'll call him Mike.

He has a studio neighbor, we'll call him Steve.

One day Steve drops by while Mike is fooling around with VSL.

Steve, having great great ears, likes what he hears.

Mike tells him it's software.

Steve asks if he may give it a try?

What would you do?

• Tell Stevie Wonder NO, sorry, can't?
• Or ask him to have a seat, while you enjoy listening to him explore?

I know what Mike did...

Iscorefilm, I don't know which came first: Stealing Software or Unreasonable License Agreements.

But I do hope you score alone, as no one else is allowed to touch your VSL.

Dear iscorefilm,

I would agree with you if  Vienna had written a clear policy of what using the key meant:

- wrote CLEARLY about the dongle warranty problem (where is it written on their website???)

- wrote CLEARLY how much restoring each license will cost once the dongle brakes

- wrote CLEARLY how much restoring each license will cost once the dongle is lost/stolen

i.e. if it had been a clear and responsible company. But they now that if any of us had read those clear condition more than half of us, and definitely most non-pros would NOT have bought their product. And look at their offer right now, they keep speaking about professionals, but they target more and more non professional with the SE and dowload offer which is becoming their primary market.

That is why the do not write any of this information. On the original Terms and Conditions there was no point 5 or 6, there was simply NOTHING no information of any sort. These points have been added because of our complaining posts, I have the email in which they admit that. Despite this, points 5 adn 6 are everything but clear! I can send you a copy of the origibal terms and conditions if you do not believe this. They are simply making up the rules as they go and they always make them to the costumer disadvantage. They know that none of us has the time or willingness to take a lawyer, but this behavior is reallly at the edge of correctness.

Cesare

It is month we are asking VSL to find a solution, but it is like talking to deaf and dumb.

I just ask to my insurance company to add the "juridical aid" to my house insurance [:'(]

I wish I will not have to use it, but now I am covered  !

Best

Cyril

Since the Synchrosoft key has already been emulated (check youtube), the main worry for Vienna, as Stefan pointed out, is that costumers (those who payed to use the software) might want to duplicate the kye to give it to friends. The funny thing is that among all possible copy protection solutions they have chosen the one that makes it EASIER to share the software!!! You just unplug the key and give it to someone else that's it. You don't need to do anything else, no need to share computers, transfer licenses, call home, or anything. It is so absurd, they are blaming us that the copy protection they have chose is simply terrible.

Cesare

@cesare.italy said:

Since the Synchrosoft key has already been emulated (check youtube), the main worry for Vienna, as Stefan pointed out, is that costumers (those who payed to use the software) might want to duplicate the kye to give it to friends. The funny thing is that among all possible copy protection solutions they have chosen the one that makes it EASIER to share the software!!! You just unplug the key and give it to someone else that's it. You don't need to do anything else, no need to share computers, transfer licenses, call home, or anything. It is so absurd, they are blaming us that the copy protection they have chose is simply terrible.

Cesare

1. The Syncrosoft key for specific software products was cracked a long time ago (Cubase and Nuendo)
2. VSL doesn't use a Syncrosoft key any more, and AFAIK the VSL "protected" products haven't been cracked.
3. It might be easier to "share" your software, but there is still only one copy in existence. All none dongled software is just as easy to share, but in that case 2 or more copies exist, which is much closer to my definition of sharing.

DG

@DG said:

VSL doesn't use a Syncrosoft key any more, ...........

DG

Eh ?    Did I miss something that  passed me by then ?

@cesare.italy said:

Oh right, I forgot big difference! They call it eLicenser now, new brand old product, has been cracked too.

Cesare 

 Not for VSL products.

DG

Cesare, I'm not going to get into an argument, but I'm pretty sure that VSL products haven't been cracked, but in any case if VSL believes that the dongle works (as do virtually all plugin developers) then they must have their reasons.

As far as passing a burden onto the customer, I have certainly felt no burden, and to me the only problem that might occur would be if I actually had to claim on my insurance. Until that happens, I have no problems with the copy protection. Where this could be improved would be if VSL could recommend an insurer. However, I can see that if you want to travel around with your dongle it would be a big risk for the insurer, so don't expect the premiums to be low.

As far as indirect taxes, I don't think that a few quid every 2 years is much to ask. It's less than a cost of a reasonably bad meal. [;)]

Don't get me wrong, I do think that there are improvements that can be made for the user, and I wish that Steinberg would implement them, but none of them concern me over much.

DG

@Terms of License said:

Is it OK to sell the product to someone else if I’m finished with the project that I needed it for?

License Transfers will be handled on a case-by-case basis as a special customer service. It will be necessary to announce a license transfer to us, and both you and the new licensee will have to sign a license transfer agreement. A nominal fee will be charged per transferred license. Please note that license transferees lose all upgrade privileges.

This point at least within the European Union is obsolete from today on, as the EU court made it perfectly clear that reselling of used software licences is legal.

[url="http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-07-03/oracle-can-t-stop-software-license-resales-eu-court-says-1-.html"]Here[/url] you can read a short summary, while [url="http://curia.europa.eu/juris/document/document.jsf?text=&docid=124564&pageIndex=0&doclang=EN&mode=req&dir=&occ=first&part=1&cid=5230979"]here[/url] you can find the original court sentence.

It will be interesting to see if this ruling applies to sample libraries, and also whether or not the company concerned is required to transfer right of updates to a new user. I would say that anyone trying to sell their software in the short term should be very careful, and make sure that they have the money for a potentially expensive law suit. [;)]

Of course this ruling is more serious for those developers who don't allow re-sale at all. I also predict that if it turns out that this ruling does affect sample libraries that we will see many of the dongle free software developers changing their minds about the sort of copy protection that they wish to use.

DG

@DG said:

whether or not the company concerned is required to transfer right of updates to a new user.

This issue is also mentioned in the sentence, all the original rights (including the right to upgrade) are an inseperable part of the original purchase and are hence passed to the new owner on resale.

When I sold my Adobe Premier License, Adobe just ask me to send them the name and address of the new owner !

I will say it again : what does VSL is not legal, we should be able to backup the licenses.

@Cyril said:

When I sold my Adobe Premier License, Adobe just ask me to send them the name and address of the new owner !

I will say it again : what does VSL is not legal, we should be able to backup the licenses.

Cyril, I can also ask regarding the backup of the licenses. Doing two inquiries I guess would be more effective, but if you don't feel like I can try to put the two things in one inquiry.

Cesare

I have ask to my insurance company to insure my lib, the answer is that they dont insure IMATERIAL stuff and by the law the provider should give the solution to backup the IMATERIAL that you own

That is why they say to get a "legal" insurance to sue them.

I dont want to sue VSL, but VSL has to reconsider and allow to backup licenses

Can you give the Email, I will also write to EEC

Hello everyone,

We can not ignore that in this thread there are posts that can be interpreted as a challenge to crack software and to support piracy. This is of course not allowed in our forum, and posts like this will not be without consequences. Furthermore we do not allow reselling our products in our forum.

The false claim that our company policies are illegal will not become true because some forum members repeat this claim as often as possible. We're sure that any lawsuit would have little chance of success, but we would prefer to spend our time doing what we do best, which is recording new samples and creating new software for the music community.

Best,

Stefan

@Stefan said:

we would prefer to spend our time doing what we do best, which is recording new samples and creating new software for the music community.

AMEN!

Don't like licenses? It's not like you can't record your own samples. I don't care if the EU, some court, or any other person who thinks they are intelligent would challenge VSL's property rights. They have every right to protect their hard work. If VSL had a policy that said "We have the right to deactivate your license at our disgression for whatever reason we choose without refunding you" I would agree that it is within their rights as well. We may all not like VSL policies, but I believe that if we agreed to buy into the product and agreed to their terms then we aren't in any place to complain about those terms.

Line 14 "According to recital 13 in that preamble, ‘the acts of loading and running necessary for the use of a copy of a program which has been lawfully acquired, and the act of correction of its errors, may not be prohibited by contract’."

The principle involved here is one that destroys any legitimacy of contractual agreements between a user and a company. It's legal nonsense. So as long as someone does something legal, contracts and agreements that would add additional restrictions on a user are unlawful? I'm glad I live in America. We may not be perfect, but if I make a program like photoshop I believe I have every right to make contracts and agreements with who I sell it to. If I didn't want people using my creations to make a "pro-Hitler" propeganda video, then why should I not be able to make such an agreement to prohibit such a use of what I created? It's my creation, my right to sell it to who I want. If I can't control my own property and how and who I can license it to, then I have no property to begin with as governments (other people) have taken away what is mine. The idea that we make agreements and contracts and are not bound by them is as legal absurd as saying that I can justify disobeying any law just because I don't like it.

This forum has been nothing but nonsense, VSL bashing, or a debate that will obviously not resolve the differences in everyone's opinion here. If you have a concern about your license (or potential licenses), email VSL. Complaining and making legal accusations on VSL's own forum is unprofessional and inappropriate. I've always felt that Music is something that can and should be a uniting passion that connects different people. If you don't like it, live with it or go somewhere else. No one is stoping you. I respect the anti-dongle opinion. I also respect your right to make your own samples. It would be better for VSL and yourself if you went elsewhere rather than remained here to do nothing but unproductively complain about something that isn't changing. Nothing productive is taking place here. If I had any problem that motivates my complaining on this thread, it's that. Write something, compose, arrange, pretend to compose for all I care... just do something productive with your time. Maybe some of you could make your own software license protection company with different policies! lol

-Sean