@Cyril said:

Hi Cesare,

What VSL product do you own ?

They did charge you 1500euro for a broken dongle !!!!

Take a lawyer, this is not legal in most of the countries !

I am with you, because with all the libs I own, the bill could be the same !

It wasn't me it was dagmarpiano. I guess he probably owns (well... "owned"...or better "owns but cannot use") a lot of download librairies (he had 64 licenses in total). If you were to pay 20 euros per license, download licenses will make the bill explode! 20 euros is almost the original download-instrument price.

I am counting: with 8 licenses my bill would be around 200/250 euros once my dongle will die. Another hundreds of euros for not being prevented from using a software that I have already have payed for. Not a new version, not an update, the exact same one! And I know that the dongle will brake (mine has got a small crack already). All devices produced now days have a planned life-cycle (it's called planned obsolecence).

It incredible! This license system is just a very, very well planned policy to constantly get money from costumers by otherwise threatening them that they will not being able to use the products they've bought. It has got nothing to do with copy protection or helping users or bla bla bla, it is just a form of indirect tax that sooner or later every user ends up payng, unless he/she keeps the dongle in a vault.

I keep wondering how I ended up spending thousands of euros (months of wage!!!) to find myself in this outrageous policy. I was 26 when I bought my first Vienna Library and I got it with the money I save from my PhD fellowship. I was soo excited when it arrived, now I so regret it! Ok, it has been a lesson of life: now I am am extremely careful, before buying software, that it does not involve the use of a dongle. But you can never know all the conditions. In the case of Vienna they simply do not inform people. I just feel scammed.

Cesare

Mike, you are right it was andyjh who owns 64 licenses, I mixed the names. But imagine that you have 60 licenses on your key like he does/did. 60*20 = 1200 plus the price of a new key, plus the secured shipping etc. It's a month wage to replace a dongle which broke! It's not going on holidays because of a policy that you could not have known about because nobody informed you, it is not written anywhere. It is arbitrary and scary. It is like one month of morgage, that you have to pay just because otherwise you won't be put in the condition of using the licenses your already own. And note that the new product line (the many download instruments, the fragmented SE, which alone can include a dozen of license, i.e. around 300 euros of replacements in case of dongle failure) seems to go torward users having more and more licenses stored on their keys.

This is simply not fair.

Cesare

@cesare.magri said:

This is simply not fair.

Cesare

Yes, I was going to buy Vienna Suite, I will wait until they find a solution 

Dear All,

We use the licensing and copy protection system of eLicenser (www.elicenser.net, owned by Steinberg/Yamaha), which is also being used successfully by other companies in our industry, such as Steinberg or Arturia.

eLicenser USB keys, such as our ViennaKey, have a two year warranty. This means that if a key breaks within the warranty period without extraneous cause, the user gets a new ViennaKey and the new license(s) free of charge. That's why we recommend to renew your eLicenser USB key every two years to be protected against malfunction.

If a user damaged the key, or if the warranty has expired, the user will of course have to pay for a new ViennaKey. Also, as mentioned by some users here in this thread, we have to charge a handling fee for the replacement license (EUR 20 per contained license). This is necessary as we ourselves also have to pay eLicenser for every replacement license we issue. As this was asked in this thread as well, our DVD Collections, e.g., Woodwinds I, consists of one license, no matter if you have the Standard Library or the Full Library (=Standard and Extended Library).

In case a lot of licenses are stored on a broken key, we will try to find a solution with the customer on a case by case basis.

I’d also like to emphasize that with eLicenser it is currently NOT possible to disable a license via remote. Disabling licenses via remote is not only a technical issue, but also a legal one, as it's not clear if we or eLicenser have the right to disable licenses.

The situations regarding a lost or broken ViennaKey are also explained in our Terms of License (§5 and §6) which every user has accepted when installing our software.

Many of our professional users don't have internet access on their audio workstations, in order to be protected against viruses and/or unauthorized data access, so we need to use a copy protection system that also works offline. However, this also means that whoever steals or finds a lost key can use the contained license(s) without any restrictions, if he or she also has access to the samples, e.g., from a friend.

I hope you can see and understand that we’re not trying to fool our users. But we HAVE to prevent possible fraud if we want to keep this company alive. This includes that it is not possible to replace licenses for free if a user has lost (or claims to have lost) his key, and also that we cannot discuss some specific issues publicly in our forum as we cannot provide instructions on how to best outwit our copy protection system to steal licenses or, in other words, “organize a second set of licenses for a friend”.

Best,

Stefan

@Stefan said:

I’d also like to emphasize that with eLicenser it is currently NOT possible to disable a license via remote. Disabling licenses via remote is not only a technical issue, but also a legal one, as it's not clear if we or eLicenser have the right to disable licenses.

Can't you solve this point?

[quote=Stefan]

The situations regarding a lost or broken ViennaKey are also explained in our Terms of License (§5 and §6) which every user has accepted when installing our software.

Hey, it looks like our posts are achieving something. It is extremely generic and confused information but it is at least a bit of information. In the Terms and Conditions I got when purchasing the library there was simply ABSOLUTELY NOTHING on this topic.

[quote=Stefan]

Many of our professional users don't have internet access on their audio workstations, in order to be protected against viruses and/or unauthorized data access, so we need to use a copy protection system that also works offline. However, this also means that whoever steals or finds a lost key can use the contained license(s) without any restrictions, if he or she also has access to the samples, e.g., from a friend.

This is YOUR choice of copy protection and does not need to be like that. You choose a copy protection system of this kind which puts ALL the preassure (loss, damage, stolen) on the costumers. It is a CHOICE don't make it sound as something unavoidable. Change licesing system if you see it does not work. You can think of proposing and implementing several options, for those who are connected. It is by far NOT impossible.

It is also incredible that with the massive amount of torrent going on (and the key has already been broken), your main concern is that we are dishonest and want to spread licenses among our friends. First of all, if I wanted to find these or other libraries illegally, I would have no problem doing it. Second my friends would not even now what to do with this software. We, your costumers, BOUGHT this products to support this industry, you and the musical industry, but honesly you are making me regret this decision. This is a true paradox!

As a costumer the approach of Vienna to this problem is simply extremely frustrating. No real detailed information and no action of any sort.

Cesare

@Stefan said:

Many of our professional users don't have internet access on their audio workstations, in order to be protected against viruses and/or unauthorized data access, so we need to use a copy protection system that also works offline. However, this also means that whoever steals or finds a lost key can use the contained license(s) without any restrictions, if he or she also has access to the samples, e.g., from a friend.

Hello Stefan,

I dont think that this is a good arguement, I am sure that we could plug your elicenser key every 4 month to have it checked, you have to connect to upgrade VI pro and VE pro every so often. 

It is not the user that has already spend a lot of euro to buy your product that should have to pay the cost of  the copy protection

For user that have a lot of downloaded instruments you should find a solution, so there multiple license goes to one licence, one for the brass, one for the winds

How will it cost me if my key get stolen  ? I have 99 % of the downloaded instruments !!!!!!!

Anyway your license  is agains European laws ! 

You must find a solution 

Best

Cyril

@Stefan said:

I’d also like to emphasize that with eLicenser it is currently NOT possible to disable a license via remote. Disabling licenses via remote is not only a technical issue, but also a legal one, as it's not clear if we or eLicenser have the right to disable licenses.

The situations regarding a lost or broken ViennaKey are also explained in our Terms of License (§5 and §6) which every user has accepted when installing our software.

Stefan, forgive me for piling on, but your terms of license #6 states:

6. Loss of the ViennaKey

Vienna Symphonic Library GmbH assumes no liability or obligation if the ViennaKey or any other eLicenser USB protection device holding one or more Vienna Symphonic Library Licenses is mislaid as a result of loss, theft or otherwise. Vienna Symphonic Library GmbH reserves the right to block its Licenses saved on the lost ViennaKey or on any other lost USB eLicenser upon being notified by the registered user of the loss. Lost or stolen Licenses cannot be replaced free of charge by Vienna Symphonic Library GmbH.

So, as ENGLISH is my first language, what am I missing?

1. If you reserve the right to block lost or stolen licenses, how are you able to do this if not remotely?
2. Are you saying that blocking licenses does not prevent the lost or stolen key from being used?
3. Then what exactly does blocking a license do?

@cesare.italy said:

[quote=Stefan]

Many of our professional users don't have internet access on their audio workstations, in order to be protected against viruses and/or unauthorized data access, so we need to use a copy protection system that also works offline. However, this also means that whoever steals or finds a lost key can use the contained license(s) without any restrictions, if he or she also has access to the samples, e.g., from a friend.

This is YOUR choice of copy protection and does not need to be like that. You choose a copy protection system of this kind which puts ALL the preassure (loss, damage, stolen) on the costumers. It is a CHOICE don't make it sound as something unavoidable. Change licesing system if you see it does not work. You can think of proposing and implementing several options, for those who are connected. It is by far NOT impossible.

I shall provide everyone here with an education...

1. some people steal software

2. some companies try to prevent it

3. the good people suffer

It is completely reasonable that they have every right to protect their property, hardwork, and potential future jobs they've invested in, even if it inconveniences people. After all, you don't have to buy it, use it, or complain about it when the initial choices leading to such disatisfaction was the consumers (yours) to make, not the company we buy from. And if you still want to blame VSL anyway, to put the burden of responsibility on the party making the first choice causing this problem to begin with, you cannot reasonably attribute such blame to VSL when considering the fact that the real problem is theft, not counter-measures. People who defend themselves against an attacker may not make perfectly thought out counter-actions and may cause some problems in doing so. I still believe if blame is assigned, it is only appropriate to assign it to the initial attacker. I believe the people complaining about VSL are... less than reasonable (to put it kindly).

1. you have a 2 year renewal option, outlined clearly or not, use it or deal with your lack of careful consideration of where you invest your money and how you protect those purchases.

2. VSL isn't to blame for replacement license fees when they are not the one responsible for those fees existence (see Steinburg and pirates first to assign your blame).

3. VSL, please consider making some sort of "License protection: simplified" page in the User Area. This way people will have a clear place to go to protect themselves, not to blame you as you aren't responsible for this problem, and so you will yet do one more thing as best as the industry gets (that is, explaining for people how and what they should do to protect themselves from... themselves) [A]

-Sean

Iscorefilm,

I suspect you assume people actually read license agreements, before making their purchase.

While recommended, it could just be bad for business.

Could scare VSL customers away.

I particularly like the part about you and only you, may use your Vienna Symphonic Library.

• No, your music business partners may not use your VSL.
• No, your children may not use your VSL.
• No, your best friend who happens to be a better keyboardist than you, may not touch your VSL.

Worst case scenario you've spent 14,000 US dollars on your Vienna Instruments, and only you may use them.

So I know this studio owner, we'll call him Mike.

He has a studio neighbor, we'll call him Steve.

One day Steve drops by while Mike is fooling around with VSL.

Steve, having great great ears, likes what he hears.

Mike tells him it's software.

Steve asks if he may give it a try?

What would you do?

• Tell Stevie Wonder NO, sorry, can't?
• Or ask him to have a seat, while you enjoy listening to him explore?

I know what Mike did...

Iscorefilm, I don't know which came first: Stealing Software or Unreasonable License Agreements.

But I do hope you score alone, as no one else is allowed to touch your VSL.

Dear iscorefilm,

I would agree with you if  Vienna had written a clear policy of what using the key meant:

- wrote CLEARLY about the dongle warranty problem (where is it written on their website???)

- wrote CLEARLY how much restoring each license will cost once the dongle brakes

- wrote CLEARLY how much restoring each license will cost once the dongle is lost/stolen

i.e. if it had been a clear and responsible company. But they now that if any of us had read those clear condition more than half of us, and definitely most non-pros would NOT have bought their product. And look at their offer right now, they keep speaking about professionals, but they target more and more non professional with the SE and dowload offer which is becoming their primary market.

That is why the do not write any of this information. On the original Terms and Conditions there was no point 5 or 6, there was simply NOTHING no information of any sort. These points have been added because of our complaining posts, I have the email in which they admit that. Despite this, points 5 adn 6 are everything but clear! I can send you a copy of the origibal terms and conditions if you do not believe this. They are simply making up the rules as they go and they always make them to the costumer disadvantage. They know that none of us has the time or willingness to take a lawyer, but this behavior is reallly at the edge of correctness.

Cesare

It is month we are asking VSL to find a solution, but it is like talking to deaf and dumb.

I just ask to my insurance company to add the "juridical aid" to my house insurance [:'(]

I wish I will not have to use it, but now I am covered  !

Best

Cyril

Since the Synchrosoft key has already been emulated (check youtube), the main worry for Vienna, as Stefan pointed out, is that costumers (those who payed to use the software) might want to duplicate the kye to give it to friends. The funny thing is that among all possible copy protection solutions they have chosen the one that makes it EASIER to share the software!!! You just unplug the key and give it to someone else that's it. You don't need to do anything else, no need to share computers, transfer licenses, call home, or anything. It is so absurd, they are blaming us that the copy protection they have chose is simply terrible.

Cesare

@cesare.italy said:

Since the Synchrosoft key has already been emulated (check youtube), the main worry for Vienna, as Stefan pointed out, is that costumers (those who payed to use the software) might want to duplicate the kye to give it to friends. The funny thing is that among all possible copy protection solutions they have chosen the one that makes it EASIER to share the software!!! You just unplug the key and give it to someone else that's it. You don't need to do anything else, no need to share computers, transfer licenses, call home, or anything. It is so absurd, they are blaming us that the copy protection they have chose is simply terrible.

Cesare

1. The Syncrosoft key for specific software products was cracked a long time ago (Cubase and Nuendo)
2. VSL doesn't use a Syncrosoft key any more, and AFAIK the VSL "protected" products haven't been cracked.
3. It might be easier to "share" your software, but there is still only one copy in existence. All none dongled software is just as easy to share, but in that case 2 or more copies exist, which is much closer to my definition of sharing.

DG

@DG said:

VSL doesn't use a Syncrosoft key any more, ...........

DG

Eh ?    Did I miss something that  passed me by then ?

@cesare.italy said:

Oh right, I forgot big difference! They call it eLicenser now, new brand old product, has been cracked too.

Cesare 

 Not for VSL products.

DG

Cesare, I'm not going to get into an argument, but I'm pretty sure that VSL products haven't been cracked, but in any case if VSL believes that the dongle works (as do virtually all plugin developers) then they must have their reasons.

As far as passing a burden onto the customer, I have certainly felt no burden, and to me the only problem that might occur would be if I actually had to claim on my insurance. Until that happens, I have no problems with the copy protection. Where this could be improved would be if VSL could recommend an insurer. However, I can see that if you want to travel around with your dongle it would be a big risk for the insurer, so don't expect the premiums to be low.

As far as indirect taxes, I don't think that a few quid every 2 years is much to ask. It's less than a cost of a reasonably bad meal. [;)]

Don't get me wrong, I do think that there are improvements that can be made for the user, and I wish that Steinberg would implement them, but none of them concern me over much.

DG

@Terms of License said:

Is it OK to sell the product to someone else if I’m finished with the project that I needed it for?

License Transfers will be handled on a case-by-case basis as a special customer service. It will be necessary to announce a license transfer to us, and both you and the new licensee will have to sign a license transfer agreement. A nominal fee will be charged per transferred license. Please note that license transferees lose all upgrade privileges.

This point at least within the European Union is obsolete from today on, as the EU court made it perfectly clear that reselling of used software licences is legal.

[url="http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-07-03/oracle-can-t-stop-software-license-resales-eu-court-says-1-.html"]Here[/url] you can read a short summary, while [url="http://curia.europa.eu/juris/document/document.jsf?text=&docid=124564&pageIndex=0&doclang=EN&mode=req&dir=&occ=first&part=1&cid=5230979"]here[/url] you can find the original court sentence.

It will be interesting to see if this ruling applies to sample libraries, and also whether or not the company concerned is required to transfer right of updates to a new user. I would say that anyone trying to sell their software in the short term should be very careful, and make sure that they have the money for a potentially expensive law suit. [;)]

Of course this ruling is more serious for those developers who don't allow re-sale at all. I also predict that if it turns out that this ruling does affect sample libraries that we will see many of the dongle free software developers changing their minds about the sort of copy protection that they wish to use.

DG