Errikos,

every experienced engineer worth his money should be able to create at least a decent-sounding mix with Vienna Suite plug-ins. :-)

But: First of all, we have to define "experienced", of course. ;-) Then the question is: How fast will he/she get there? How inspiring was the way to get there? And why does the MIR -mix still sound that ineffable bit "deeper" and "more true" ...? Maybe because the initial sonic idea didn't get lost during a tiresome mixing-process ...?

For me, it's not either / or. Actually Vienna Suite is meant to enhance the possibilities of VE Pro / MIR Pro. Even Convolution Reverb has its place in this scheme of things, taking into account the sound-designing Timbral Impulse Resonses from Numerical Sound.

Kind regards,

Errikos, in that case, if you had to chose one or the other, and based on what you said, I would recommend MIR and just use your hosts eq "if" you need to (you likely won't). Mixing with MIR is very different, you can find the sound you want without using ANY eq. Very cool. Also for someone who is not big into engineering, you will find it far more intuitive and easier. Why not download the trial - there is a free trial here at VSL, just download it and you can try it out and see how it is.

Thanks Dietz and mpower88. Of course MIR, as sophisticated as it seems to be, remains a reverb in concept and a user should treat its output accordingly, that is proceed to further enhance it by multi-compression/limiting/etc. which is what Vienna Suite is. Have I got this right, or is it a general concensus that MIR's output could possibly be bounced as final audio (save for some initial E.Q. on the instrument tracks)? I guess it was interesting for me to hear the same user's two mixes from the two different products.

Sadly, my current setup does not allow me to try MIR at this time, but since theoretically I'd be prepared to spend more money if that meant I could eschew the more elaborate mixing process for a more intuitive/natural alternative, it is interesting to know that MIR is a serious step in that direction.

Not for me. I think you really need to try it out. For example, often we are adding eq to instruments to try to give depth to the mix - removing bass from further away instruments, etc. I found I had to disable most of my colouring eq because it was not necessary for a large part when mixing with mir. If you want it to sound further away, you just move it further away. I do however find it's very useful to use the suite eq and the resonance presets for individual instruments in there pre-mir. It's true, the best is to have both mir and suite and use them together, I'm not saying you don't need suite, I'm simply answering your question if you had to choose one or the other, then for me, I would choose MIR. I do still use some eq, but much less, and I found that so far in my trial at least, it is a massive time saver, with a far better result.

I physically cannot try MIR with my current equipment, but so far 'massive time-saving' and less programming makes it a very attractive proposition for someone that can happily do without the joys of actual engineering, but covets the great results that result from it.

MIR is a unique piece of software, far more than mere reverb, because it creates an entire environment for each instrument based upon the symphony orchestra on a stage.  As a result, a musician feels at home using it, and can adjust everything based upon musical principles rather than those learned from being an expert technician.  Also, it does something that ALtiverb and all the other convolutions never figured out - that the microphone placement should be stable while all the instrument locations vary.  In other words, a single listener with multiple sound sources.  That is the basic fact of the orchestra that no one else seems to understand.

Thanks Philippe. Was that audio output solely MIR PRO's? How many other tweaks were involved to create your sound?

As MIR was so wonderfully conceived (simulating the real experience very closely - stationary listener vs multiple positions), I'm trying to find out what users' experiences have been like in practice. Has MIR basically merely replaced their reverberation concerns in their sequences, or - due to its high standard of realism - has it also made a lot of the customary plug-in tweaks redundant? And to what extent? What in everybody's opinion is still necessary to do (even to that lesser extent), despite MIR's wonderful achievements?

In my limited experience so far with the trial, it does do away with a LOT of tweaking, and I mean about 98%. You still want to use EQ, and you still want to tweak MIR itself, moving instruments etc, and like the previous post just said, using different instances / rooms for certain instruments to achieve a desired effect. Like the manual says it doesn't matter what the stage layout looks like, but how it sounds, so if you want to place a certain instrument in the far rear corner because it sounds right even though you would never do that in real life, go ahead and do it. I still use some eq, but only very simply, to shape the sound, and find that yes, MIR so far, is definitely doing 98% of the hard work.

Of course you can get into all kinds of creative engineering with MIR, like an engineer would when recording from a real room. But the point is that for most people it was simply a task to use EQ, compression etc, as a way to try to fake the realism - so now you don't have to do that - it's automatically (more or less) there. If you want to get into more creative things, that's another story. For many composers I think a set and forget approach is now within reach - concentrate on writing and programming the parts. For others who want to take it to the next level, you can absolutely do that too.

The funny thing is that the best fun I have had with MIR so far was with a loop of a shaker, haha, and I used the audio input feature to send it to a spot on the stage, and it just made it work.

@Errikos said:

Thanks Dietz and mpower88. Of course MIR, as sophisticated as it seems to be, remains a reverb in concept and a user should treat its output accordingly, that is proceed to further enhance it by multi-compression/limiting/etc. which is what Vienna Suite is. Have I got this right, or is it a general concensus that MIR's output could possibly be bounced as final audio (save for some initial E.Q. on the instrument tracks)? I guess it was interesting for me to hear the same user's two mixes from the two different products.

MIR output is in this case a VE5 output and can be recorded as a complete single-file mix.

It is very important to understand that MIR really isn't just a reverb (Dietz' "propaganda" is actualy an acurate description of what MIR is capable of doing beyond the "reverb"-part), but actually a highly intricate and sophisticated collection of virtual concert halls in which you can very intuitively set the finest differences in spatial position and playing direction of any given instrument completely independent of any other instrument (or section). The impact this has on the realism and depth of spatial setups for orchestra arrangements is stunning - you can take a listen to Williams done with MIR here or a Mendelssohn done with MIR here,

I love MIR but unless they will get more venues (TODD AO??) I won't use it...a real shame for such a great tool!

Hey Dietz, are any of the MIR audio demos straight outputs of raw VI sequences through the software, so that one can hear what MIR sounds like reverberating the almost unechoic VSL instruments on its absolute own, free of any other plug-in/parametric adjustments? [And I mean other than the single snare-drum or Paul's voice used in the video examples]

P.S.: If you permit me, I think you locked that other thread a little prematurely; I so wanted to contribute a couple of things over there, regarding realism and musicianship... Always in good taste, naturally... [li]

@Ramu said:

I love MIR but unless they will get more venues (TODD AO??) I won't use it...a real shame for such a great tool!

 Does TODD AO actually exist any more?

What don't you like about the current venues?

DG

@Ramu said:

I love MIR but unless they will get more venues (TODD AO??) I won't use it...a real shame for such a great tool!

Hmmm ... you could use MIR Pro right now _and_ with new Venues later. 😉

BTW - Todd AO scoring stage is history since several years: -> http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117970664?refCatId=2650

Apart from that: There are eleven Venues available for MIR / MIR Pro right now, with over fourty different Main Microphone positions, built from a total of (roughly estimated) fourtythousand individual impulse responses. This you could keep you busy for a while. 😉

Of course we have plans for new Venues, but there are quite a few things to consider (... I've tried to sum it up in a short section of the "Think MIR!" manual addendum: ->  http://dl.vsl.co.at/downloader.aspx?ID=7629 ). It's not as easy as going in, clapping your hands three times, and you're done. 8-]

Another problematic point is that many (if not all) of the anglo-american "scoring stages" seem to look at MIR as some kind of evil competition, not as a vehicle for spreading their fame, so they don't want us to sample their halls - plain and simple. While this is an (ambivalent) compliment for the realism achievable with MIR, it doesn't help a lot to swiftly increase the number of Venues with names that are known to you.

Kind regards,

@gjdolphin79 said:

It's breathtaking!

:-))) Thanks a lot!

Hi Dietz!

I didn't know about Todd AO but if I mentionned them it was to avoid mentionning Altiverb.

I have always and ever been a big VSL Fan. MIR was for me a great tool for one of my project. But a felow composer once showed me how to setup Altiverb and I had to admit the color (using Todd AO) was (is) much better.

The first thing I did when MIR PRO came out was to try different settings (mics, EQ) to get a great color but it was not as good...I'm sorry to say so...

Despite this, I'd like the people reading this to know that MIR is great...no INCREDIBLE! The tool is now much better now being linked to VE pro using network. Soundwise it's much more a matter of taste than anything else!

@Ramu said:

Hi Dietz!

I didn't know about Todd AO but if I mentionned them it was to avoid mentionning Altiverb.

I have always and ever been a big VSL Fan. MIR was for me a great tool for one of my project. But a felow composer once showed me how to setup Altiverb and I had to admit the color (using Todd AO) was (is) much better.

The first thing I did when MIR PRO came out was to try different settings (mics, EQ) to get a great color but it was not as good...I'm sorry to say so...

Despite this, I'd like the people reading this to know that MIR is great...no INCREDIBLE! The tool is now much better now being linked to VE pro using network. Soundwise it's much more a matter of taste than anything else!

The colour of Todd AO was certainly different from some other studios, but I don't think it was better. Certainly there are real problems with the Altiverb sampling of this once great studio that none of the MIR rooms suffer from. Have you tried the Teldex in MIR? This has a nice colour as well. Perhaps not as dark as Todd, but actually more usable to my ears.

DG

Hi everybody,

I've been using VSL:SE for quite some time now since summer 2007, but I've never posted anything to this excellent board, so I guess first thing should be a friendly "Hi!" to everybody and a big warm "thank you" to all at VSL for creating this amazing software.

I'm not a pro, and I only use VSL:SE as a hobby project, but nevertheless I enjoy working with it very much.

When I read about MIR PRO I was curious to learn more about it, but I was not sure if my machine could handle it (i7 CP 930 @2,8Ghz with only 12 Gigs of RAM), but so far, my demo is working just fine (I don't have that many tracks, though, just about 20-24 tracks / instruments usually).

What can I say? I'm blown away, it's an amazing piece of software, very easy to use, and it sounds great even with just the one demo-licence-roompack.

I was seriously thinking about buying Vienna Suite soon, but now I think I should just invest a little bit more money and buy VE PRO 5 / MIR (bundle) and get Vienna Suite later.

Like I said, I'm not a pro, but in my opinion, it's definitely worth its money.

Greetings from Bremen, Germany,
Michael