William,

Thanks for the kind words...though I'm not sure I would call my comments particularly insightful. I scratch my head and reach for perspective every day...as I'm sure all of us do.

There's a part of me that envies those on this forum - and elsewhere - who are in a situation in which they NEVER have to change a note. No overhead...no employees...no financial responsibilities as a factor when deciding which work to accept, or dictating when and how you compose. Daily, I deal with the frustration of clients giving direction with little or no real understanding of music, or the process by which we create it. Is it a compromise? Sure. But like everything, there's a flip side.

When I put my shingle out as a full-time composer 14 years ago (after 8 years of doing it freelance around my broadcasting day gig), I never dreamed that today we would have three composers (myself included), a full time sound designer and support staff...not to mention a mortgage on a piece of commercial real estate. On one hand that means payroll to meet, health insurance to pay, and constant pressure to generate a certain amount of revenue each month. On the other hand, it means I get to work with some incredibly creative, talented folks who keep me sharp...keep me inspired every day. Our collective creative energy is greater than my own, and I learn from them as I hope they learn from me. In that regard, the time I have to spend as a "businessman" is well worth it. It's a means to an end. And though it takes time that I could be using to compose...I think I'm a better composer for it.

This next thought is probably the one that will generate the most discussion, but what the heck...

As for clients making me change my music? That's not necessarily ALWAYS a bad thing. My feeling is, a good idea is a good idea. I've come this conclusion: Who am I to think my idea is always the best one? I view most of the projects we work on as collaborative efforts, and getting finely attuned to the sensibilities of the person calling the shots can often take me in musical directions I would have NEVER have thought to venture into on my own. As a result I learn. I stretch. I grow.

I think of those times when clients have requested what I thought were ridiculous changes. Sometimes a funny thing happens. When I make the change, then TRULY listen objectively, occasionally the end result is better. When a client bends their ideas based on MY input as well, that's true collaboration. And in the context of specific fields of work, that's not an artistic compromise...that's the way it SHOULD be. And I think I'm a better composer for it.

Are there situations in which I refuse to compromise? Yep. The need to sharpen my own musical voice has led me to begin a solo project, during which I will neither solicit or entertain feedback of any kind. I do it PURELY as an artistic and creative endeavor. When it's done it's done, and I don't really care whether anyone likes it or not.

So for me, I feel like I get the best of both worlds. And if I might add...

I'll be using some cool stuff on my solo project that I NEVER could have afforded without the revenue from my little company.
[[;)]]

Fred Story

@Fred Story said:

I do it PURELY as an artistic and creative endeavor. When it's done it's done, and I don't really care whether anyone likes it or not. Fred Story

Now you're talking!

Originally posted by Fred Story
I do it PURELY as an artistic and creative endeavor. When it's done it's done, and I don't really care whether anyone likes it or not. Fred Story

Exactly!!
That's the point here.[:D]

Swanyce

"As for clients making me change my music? That's not necessarily ALWAYS a bad thing. My feeling is, a good idea is a good idea. I've come this conclusion: Who am I to think my idea is always the best one? I view most of the projects we work on as collaborative efforts, and getting finely attuned to the sensibilities of the person calling the shots can often take me in musical directions I would have NEVER have thought to venture into on my own. As a result I learn. I stretch. I grow."

This is what happens to me too, I have reached directions I could never imagine thanks to the collaboration with other people. Obviously it's a mutual "exchange" that nourishes both parts, though you may also meet "odd" people . But I could never think of creating or writing a piece under schemes I honestly don't like at all just to make money out of it and please the customer. I always try to understand what they ask, then we find a point we both share and we start from there. I must say sometimes the results are incredible, and when you finish you say "wow did we really do it?" It's amazing, you can reach so many dimensions. [:D]

Thanks for the thumbs-up, guys. But I want to make sure my point wasn't misunderstood.

We can all agree that the freedom to follow our muses without compromise is a good thing. (And I certainly won't re-open the 'artistic integrity' discussion that got so out of hand not long ago.)

My point is that re-thinking and re-shaping a composition at someone else's request (or insistence) is not necessarily ALWAYS a bad thing. (Though it certainly CAN be. Plagiarism and plain bad ideas being two notable examples.) Taking to heart the ideas of GOOD directors and producers have helped me improve as a composer...to look at things from a different creative perspective...however you want to put it.

And now that I've started this solo project, there's no way some of that experience won't come into play - to hopefully make the outcome better than it would have been without it.

To those who say, "I'll never change a note of music for anybody"...I salute you. When it comes to how we make music, we need to stick to our guns.

For me, dealing with demanding clients, constant deadlines...AND having to make changes...have sharpened me in a way that I find useful when it comes to my personal writing. They co-exisit quite peacefully, and I feel fortunate to be able to do both.

Fred Story

Swanyce,

I think we were posting at the same time...and making essentially the same point.

Fred Story

Swanyce,

Thanks for those quotes - it is good to hear someone talking about the basis of inspiration here, in other words, the reason why you are doing music in the first place. I agree on the Beethoven quote. Two of my other favorite quotes are:


"Music is the only bodiless entry into a higher world of knowlege which comprehends mankind, but is not comprehended by it."
-Beethoven


The musician's art is to send light into the depths of man's soul."
-Robert Schumann

And when it comes to making money with our craft, let's not forget this classic...

"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side."

Hunter S. Thompson

[:'(] unfortunately that's so true. I think everybody who is already working out there has had his own good big portion of "poison to swallow" with music business... collaborators (composers like us, managers, agents etc..) may be on top of the list. But nowaydays you can find "poison to swallow" in any fields not just music.

... anyway I always try to keep a positive attitude.
Swanyce [:D]

Fred,

I don't need Hunter S. Thompson's trendy negativism.

I am talking about people who have real ideas - like Beethoven and Schumann.

William,

I visited your website, I love your music, so passionate! I like all of your mp3s, Elegy is my favourite. It moved me and it's not easy for me to find music that can touch me this way nowadays. Your music talks to the soul. I wish you all the best of success, you really deserve it. [:)]

Btw, you have a lot of beautiful quotes on your site about music.
Schuman and Beethoven are the best, I agree with them.

Swanyce [:D]

I've been reading some of the comments in this thread with great interest. It is good to know that there are so many different approaches to music making.

I think that one of the reasons that I work best to a deadline is that being a performer, the excitement of the pospective performance seems to spur me into action. The funny thing is that I don't write by improvising. When I do, I find that I have already limited myself to what my hands can easily do; not always a good thing. Many past masters were also excellent at improvising, but still had to spend a huge amount of time thinking about their music away from the keyboard to hammer the composition into shape (I'm thinking of Beethoven here, as many people have quoted him).

The other thing that I've been thinking about is the concept of inspiration. Whilst I may think that I have been inspired to come up with something good, others may deride my offerings as trite, banal, uninspired etc. All I can do is try to produce the best that I can and hope that someone enjoys the experience of listening to it.

"The other thing that I've been thinking about is the concept of inspiration. Whilst I may think that I have been inspired to come up with something good, others may deride my offerings as trite, banal, uninspired etc."

I believe that when something is truly inspired, not just because you think it is inspired, other people generally recognize that for it causes deeper emotions. But there is also envy and competition out there, especially from people in the same field (other composers, musicians, etc..) that may talk just to say something against you, with the purpose of "praising" themselves by humiliating you or your work. Your "music mates" can become your enemies number one: they can steal ideas, works, etc...
Anyway don't let anyone deride your music, if they do, just take only constructive advices. I think all composers and all creative people in the music field should receive respect towards their works, no matter how banal, unispired they may sound.
How many composers have been derided during their lives... take J. S. Bach for example, who was considered a mediocre. Or take Giuseppe Verdi, who was rejected twice at the Milan Conservatory and was never allowed to attend!! Only after his death they named the Conservatory after his name (what a shame).
And the list could go on and on...

I personally think Inspiration refers to whatever the Spirit suggests when you create. You let the Spirit "run free" without schemes. You try to listen and follow such a "suggestion" at your best. No matter what people say. You must believe in what you are doing. This is about creation. If you are a conductor, obviously your job is based on schemes but you may be "inspired" in the way you conduct (choosing the right rests - speed - etc -you add your personal "touch" even if the composition is not yours). The same with musicians....
This is my own vision, I just wanted to share it with you. [[;)]]

@Swanyce said:

I believe that when something is truly inspired, not just because you think it is inspired, other people generally recognize that for it causes deeper emotions. But there is also envy and competition out there, especially from people in the same field (other composers, musicians, etc..) that may talk just to say something against you, with the purpose of "praising" themselves by humiliating you or your work. Your "music mates" can become your enemies number one: they can steal ideas, works, etc...
Anyway don't let anyone deride your music, if they do, just take only constructive advices. I think all composers and all creative people in the music field should receive respect towards their works, no matter how banal, unispired they may sound.

Thanks for that; I'm trying to write something for a broadcast planned for a few weeks time at the moment. The orchestra is booked, schedules printed, so I'm hoping that todays offerings will have some sort of inspirational input [:)]

DG

Have a good, "inspired" work [[;)]]
Wish you the best.

Swanyce [:D]

@William said:

Fred,

I don't need Hunter S. Thompson's trendy negativism.

I am talking about people who have real ideas - like Beethoven and Schumann.

Simply meant as a moment of levity, my friend.

But, must we engage in this sort of 'hand slapping'? It's the reason I post here so seldom.

Fred Story

Swanyce,

Thanks a lot for those kind comments. Your website is great, a very elegant design. Though I haven't been able to download any music yet because of my Jurassic Era modem.

Also, I agree with your response to DG writing: "The other thing that I've been thinking about is the concept of inspiration. Whilst I may think that I have been inspired to come up with something good, others may deride my offerings as trite, banal, uninspired etc." This does happen, but usually if you are really inspired (which means nothing more than being excited about an idea) it WON'T be trite and banal. The best way to come up with things that are good, is to do things you can get excited about. I don't think DG or anyone shold worry about whether what they do "measures up" to some supposed standard. In a sense, the attitude of a child drawing pictures with crayons is the perfect way for an artist to behave: he is doing it not because he thinks he is an "Artist" but just because it is FUN. When that same child grows up he will stop doing pictures, because adults have taught him that he is not an"Artist." But why? There are some artists who had little technical skill, like Joseph Cornell, or Ives Tanguy, but who had a desperate urge to create. And so they found a style of their own, and changed the course of art history.

@Swanyce said:

I believe that when something is truly inspired, not just because you think it is inspired, other people generally recognize that for it causes deeper emotions.

I wouldn´t be so sure. First, who decides if something is really inspired? The one with the deeper emotion? Pah. I don´t buy that.
One and the same music can make the one smile and the other puke, it´s out of your hand. There´s nothing 'objective' in music. The response depends totally and absolutely on the listener, not on you as a composer.
Inspiritation is a nice overestimated feeling of joy on onesself, nothing more. Stravinsky talks of an emotional disturbance. Ok.
The root of artistic creativity lies in curiousity and appetite, not in emotional disturbances. You get nowhere with that.

Puh, had to say that. Always when things get to neo-romantic I feel the urge to talk back. There are good reasons that this era ended 100 years ago. And I´m totally happy about that.

Having said all that, welcome, Swanyce, on board of this little forum. It´s great to have more females here. (And of course thanks for your kind words on my site.)

Fred Story, as usual I appreciate your posts. Please post more! And I agree totally that defending and changing ones work against clients sharpens ones own work. There are points which indeed can´t be discussed anymore but one should try to extend this line as far as possible.

Ok, let´s finish this little rant,
bests,
- Mathis

Ok, I didn´t totally get the meaning of the quoted sentence. So I add something: I understand that a inspired masterpiece is recognized through a multitude of deeply emotionalized human beings. Right?
Did you ever think about other cultures? (To make things black an white.) Do you really think you understand the "inspiration" of a gamelan player? (I doubt that he even thinks in terms of "inspiration"). And he yours? Do you believe an Eskimo will understand your inspiration? I sincerely doubt that.
And I doubt that your neighbour will fully understand your inspiration like you´ve experienced it. And then there are all people in between.
Mind you: "Inspiration" is an invention of the romantics, as is the whole "art" attitude. Art was invented very late, maybe in music with late Beethoven. There´s absolutely no reason to be convinced there still exists "art" in music nowadays. This was a temporary nice thing. It ended with the 70´s when art still ment something essential. Since then there´s something else, but still I don´t know what.

For me Edgar Varèse was a truly inspired composer (if I´m ever forced to use this word). I don´t think he made many people feel deep emotions.

I hope to have started a really controverse discussion!

Wow, Mathis, you're feeling good, aren't you?


While we agree on many things, and you have some very intelligent responses here and I love hearing this kind of discussion, I must say that I agree with Swanyce who said that GENERALLY people recognize inspiration. Not always (due to cultural differences, etc.) Also, I love romanticism, and do not think it ever died, and think that you are wrong on the concept of inspiration. (Don't get mad and no longer agree to the links, o.k.?) Because it is a real thing.

"Inspiration is a nice overestimated feeling of joy on onesself, nothing more. Stravinsky talks of an emotional disturbance . Ok.
The root of artistic creativity lies in curiousity and appetite, not in emotional disturbances. You get nowhere with that."

Though I agree to some extent if you are really refering to silly cliches about inspiration, you really should pay no attention to Stravinsky's verbal statements. He is one of the most obnoxious, negative and dried up old prunes who ever lived. But he was a tremendous composer. People should only listen to his music, NOT his statements becuase they are bullshit motivated by very narrow personal concerns and biases and frustrations (like his STUPID statement about film music - it is "wallpaper." Guess why he made that pronouncement? Because he was rejected as a film composer.)

"The root of artistic creativity lies in curiousity and appetite, not in emotional disturbances"

Wow - that is a great statement by you, Mathis - I absolutely agree with that - but a stupid one by Stravinsky. Again - never listen to a composer. (So why are you listening to me? I don't know. O.K. - we shouldn't listen to each other. Never mind.)

Sorry for that digression. You know why he wrote "Emotional disturbances?" BECAUSE HE WAS F***ING CONTRADICTING EVERYTHING HE DID IN HIS LIFE!!!!

Igor Stravinski created the single greatest emotional disturbance in the HISTORY OF MUSIC!!!

The "Rite" caused riots and violence! People were hitting each other on the head in time to the music because of it. It was the essence of "Emotional disturbance." But Stravinski couldn't handle that and turned to "neo-classicism" and his music went down the toilet. The most boring piece of crap ever written in modern music is "History of a Soldier." I DEFY anyone beisdes a clarinet player to listen to that piece of shit and stay awake.

"The Firebird" and "Le Sacre" are two fo the greatest works of pure, unadulterated, ferocious ROMANTICISM


Real inspiration is simply emotional commitment to the most emotionally powerful form of art - music (aside from cinema). I agree that Varese is a great composer, but he contradicts you Mathis in that all of his music was very emotionally created (believe it or not). He was a pure, unadulterated ROMANTIC. In fact he hated neo-classicism.

The true nature of romanticism is not the fluff and frills and prettiness that the Victorians made it into and people today believe it is - it is death and sex and the raw power of nature and madness that anti-mainstream weirdos like Byron, Coleridge, Shelley and Keats created - hippies, beatnicks and punks before there were hippies, beatnicks and punks.