Hello Paul, hello William

Thanks for your interesting statements. Of course, we all would like an even more realistic orchestra - played with samples.

I try to explain my doupts in connection with the use of samples and this H-tuning another way round...

1. When we are choosing a sustain sample (example) we get always the same sample for same tone (or maybe second variation)

    VSL did such a good job, that we don't recognize these same "everytime-sounds" at a first glance.

    Nevertheless, live means every time a bit another sustain well tuned or not.

2. Let's play a sus sample of an ensemble.

    We always get the same one or two sustains and further, we also get always the same "static" beginning of all the players for a certain tone.

So if we just take these two matters - the start of playing tones of an ensemble and the tone itself - we would get a lot of different audible variations... and this even if these real sustains would be played by the London Symphony.  

 Back to our samples: Unfortunately we have just one or sometimes two variations.

Now, if we are going to tune this "evreytimethesame" in an evereytime - and I mean everytime - clean intonation then it sounds nice for one or some chords, yes,

But the whole result sounds even more synthetic or in other words: in an "inhuman way".

What we need is probably a tuning system yes, but one which includes a humanizer. It should tune but also not...;-)

...I agree: Use this H-tuning system if you like it.

Since I use samples I feel that all live-orchestras are playing wrong. How would I feel when I would use H-Tuning?

I believe, that we "samplers" get more and more our own meaning what live is...

Tomorrow evening I'm going to record the Brassband and the String Orchestra of a larger town here in Switzerland...

They will play horrible detuned - I know it already now. ;-)

About "just intonation"

I would like to know more about as well...

All the best

Beat

Paul wrote:

...There is one technical caveat: If you try to bounce audio from Logic with Hermode Tuning it defaults to equal temperament...

I haven't realized this until now as I used in past the samples of "Opus1" embedded in the EXS24 and this works perfectly.

But now I have started with the "VSL Boesendorfer Imperial" and I was sometimes astonished for no more hearing the difference between Hermode Tuning and equal temperament after having bounced the referring files. But I believed that this was the result of the quick fading out of piano tones.

I will ask the referring programmer of VSL to check this and to correct it, if any possible.

Hi Beat,

I don't hate you and I am sure no other of the members of this discussion will do so. Every discussion needs an "advocatus diaboli". This helps claryfy different meanings. Besides, the world would be poorer if all people would have the same taste. So, in case you listened to the musical examples of Paul Henry and you like the equal tempered example more than this with Hermode Tuning: This is your personal taste and you may keep it, independend of the meaning of others.

Nevertheless, please let me answer to some points of your last message:

Firstly: You confirm that the members of well educated chamber ensembles, orchestras and (chamber) choirs try to get a fine tuning and you add: "They don't get this situation very often". I would agree if you would have written "not in every case, not in every moment". Nevertheless: They try it and they get it oftenly. But following your objections the result of such a tight attachment to the ideal would sound stiff??? - You forget that only major chords will bring a concordance between the mathematic of just intonation and a clear, full and rich sound. A minor chord, even in so-called just intonation, sounds less clear and other chords and note combinations - if any correctable - sound still sharper. With other words: Such tuning corrections enhance the contrast, the suspension, between consonant and dissonant harmonic situations - and this is a fundamental idea of traditional western music.

Next: As you don't know the different programme variations (so-called "modes") of Hermode Tuning please let me explain that one can select for every mode a depth of full correction (100 %) until to 0 % (equal temperament). Besides, there exists also a mode following the idea: Simple harmonic sequences will get a higher (but no perfect) correction, dashing harmonic sequences will be corrected lower. This refers better to original situations in orchestras than a random tuning. Nevertheless, adding little(!) random tuning values could be interesting, therefore thank you for your suggestion. I hope you possess no copyright in it, otherwise please let me know this.

Next: Please understand: We don't correct all notes to definite tuning ratios. An augmented triad for instance cannot become tuned to "just intonation". Such chords and a lot of other note combinations and single notes will be tuned according to the principle: "rich but inconspicuous melodic sequences". Their tuning values are not random but they depend in the harmonic situation before, in the analysis where the actual tonal center is and even by its earlier or later starting point.  So, Hermode Tuning can be considered as a colorful distorted equal temperament but distorted more sensfully than with only random tuning values.

If ever you will have new and more precise ideas how to reconcile "perfect intonation" and "realistic intonation", please let me know this. Than we could discuss whether it could become translated in mathematic algorithms.

Best

Werner

Hmm, am I the only one who finds the Hermode Tuning example referred in the first example sometimes "extremely out of tune" compared to the Equal Tempered? (I honestly have to admit that my ears are surely not the best)

One example is at 0:25

Somehow this confuses me, as I am usually the last one complaining about bad intonation ...

Gabriel:

I assume you refer to the "Beethoven 9" example at fauxharmonics website as mentioned in the beginning of this discussion.

Maybe you will be disturbed by the minor chords. This could be as for minor chords there exist two different ideal tuning ratios. Please let me explain it.

The "father" of just intonation is the major chord. Its ideal tuning corresponds to the tuning ratios root : third : fifth = 4 : 5 : 6. A minor chord, tuned with the same thirds as this major chord, shows the tuning ratios 5 : 6 : 7.5 (or extended to integers 10 : 12 : 15, which is the same).

But for minor chords exists also a nice alternate ideal tuning, this is 16 : 19 : 24.

Translated in Cents values this could be for a major chord in just intonation (root, third, fifth) = +6, -8, +8 deviation to equal temperament.

For the first named minor chord the Cents values could be (root, minor third, fifth) = -8, +8, -6 deviation to equal temperemant.

I say "could be", as for a major chord the Cents values also could be, for instance, 0, -14, + 2 Cents or for the minor chord described above, 0, +16, +2. As for the accuracy of the tuning ratios only the differences of the Cents values are relevant and not the absolute pitch. But the first named values are tighter positioned to equal temperament and cause less retuning, this is the Hermode Tuning method.

The major chord as described above and the first named minor chord normally are considered as being in just intonation.

The second minor chord (16:19:24) sounds slightly different to the first one, nevertheless it is in its pureness character aequivalent to the first one. And - more interesting - its Cents deviation to equal temperament are (root, minor third, fifth) = 0, -2, +2. With other words: A minor chord in equal temperament is nearly perfect tuned.

Unfortunately it isn't possible to turn its both minor thirds to a nearly perfect tuned major chord. The result would be 19 : 24 : 28.5, extended to the integers 38 : 48 : 57. This sounds dissonant.

This - to most people unknown - tuning background is the reason why most musicians at pianos like the minor chords and feel that major chords sound somehow rough.Therefore it could be possible that the sound of the first named minor chords are a little strange for your ears.

Neverteheless, in the professional education of instrumentalists with string and wind instruments and singers in professional choirs the first named minor chord is preferred. As otherwise in musical situations where a major chord will be followed by its parallel minor chord there would come up unpleasing and audible retuning steps. With other words: Major chords could be tuned correctly by ingenuous listening, for minor chords one has to select between two alternative options.

Hermode Tuning works with the first named minor chords. In principal. At the VIRUS synth exists an OEM of it, performing the minor chords according to the second variant. I don't like it due to audible retuning steps.

But now, as you mentioned time 0:25 of the mentioned example I would like to ask you: Do you feel so at each minor chord? This musical example is full of minor chords, e.g. already at time 00.2 with d-minor. On the other hand there appear also major chords (Second beginning of the wind instruments - Bb major, what do you feel there in comparision with equal temperament?

Best-

Werner

i Gabriel,

Your last post of Dec. 05 was transmitted to me by E-mail. But by any reason it doesn't appear here in the Forum. It seems it has been deleted.

So I repeat your message and I will answer below.

Your message:

Dear Werner!
 
So after some time I am coming back to your question ..
As I am really no professional i would like to keep it in PM ...
I listend to the example (you have been right, beethoven 9th) again and again
In the dynamic tuning the second note of melody (violins) of staff 5 really causes pain in my ears. (It is really that bad that i can't understand that none of the for sure much better musicians in this board notice it ...)
(This should be the root note of F major chord)
This F should (from my point of view) should be several cent higher.

And now my answer:

The mentioned F (the root of a F major chord) is positioned 4 Cents higher than in the equal tempered version. The Cent values, shown as deviations from equal temperament are: F = 4, A = -10, C = 6. In this way the distance to the bass note A is 14 Cents is also higher than with equal temperament.  Even the melodic step from the preceding D is bigger than with equal temperament (D = -10), so the melodic step is 314 instead 300 Cents of equal temperament.

This is the objective situation. Nevertheless I confess you to "feel" this F as deep. But I don't know, why.

In general, I am disturbed of the roughness of the ET version. In case you will compare recordings of different orchestras with the Hermode Tuning example and the ET example, published by Paul, follow this link:

www.classicalarchives.com/work/4237.html

You will learn that the ancient recordings (e.g. Furtwängler) sound somehow rough as at that the time the instrumentalists have been less educated in intonation. The recordings of the last twenty years show a much better intonation behavior. These examples sound tight to the Hermode Tuning version.This is as in the education of orchestral musicians the subject of just intonation actually has a much higher rating than in earlier times.

Best

Werner

Uups,

I copied the link to the classicalarchives from a word document. So there appeared all formatting informations.

Once again the mentioned link, written now carefully by hand:

www.classicalarchives.com/work/4237.html

I have to keep in mind that whenever I'm listening to a comparison of these tuning approaches, the second one always sounds weird (at first).  I think one's brain quickly begins to accept whatever tuning system is in play, and then if anything deviates from it, we hear it "sticking out."

The fact is that using equal tempered or Hermode tuning can allow expressive and valuable musical experiences to arise.  I'm just very impressed with how, in some cases, using Hermode tuning just gives me a softer, better blended sound.  Yet, on the other hand, equal temperament has a certain brightness, and it doesn't sound "out of tune" most of the time.  So these different colors are subtle, and maybe inconsequential.  

Nevertheless, I made one more little comparison (am I the only one who knows how to do this here?) using the opening harmonies of that Beethoven 9th excerpt, but played just on clarinets.  You can definitely hear the differences.  But does one really sound "out of tune" if you listen to it alone (and not in comparison with the other)?

Equal Tempered
http://www.fauxharmonic.com/music/beethoven-9-clar-ET.mp3

Hermode 
http://www.fauxharmonic.com/music/beethoven-9-clar-HT.mp3

@gabriel81 said:

Hmm, am I the only one who finds the Hermode Tuning example referred in the first example sometimes "extremely out of tune" compared to the Equal Tempered? (I honestly have to admit that my ears are surely not the best)

One example is at 0:25

Somehow this confuses me, as I am usually the last one complaining about bad intonation ...

No, you're not the only one!  The note you mention (second note of the violin entrance) A is not only the third of a major triad, it also is the leading tone of the B-flat major scale.  When this A is played a bit sharper, the linear (subsequent) connection to B-flat, the next note is more palpable.  The higher leading-tone is more "lead-y" when it's higher in pitch.

Now I don't think Hermode Tuning deals with melodic or contrapuntal function (or scale degree function).  It just fits that A into an F major chord nicely.  Making that third as "good" as possible.  But we play that note as the note leading to B-flat.  So we play it a bit higher.  Maybe a future version of Hermode Tuning will be aware of contrapuntal and scale degree function as well as harmonic function within a chord.  But for now, this A is certainly one of those spots where "better in tune third" is trumped by "more compelling linear motion."

..."The note...is also the leading tone... (and) is more "lead-y" when it's higher in pitch...

I know that this tuning behaviour was trained in earlier years. But a high major third destroys the resonance of the chord, it blurs the bass notes and in this way the bass (fifth or forth) step from the dominant root to the tonica root will become unclear. So one has to select between functional and this specific melodic hearing.

It is not possible to combine both requirements.

The tuning education of orchestral musicians actually follows the functional idea and no more the "leading tone high" idea.

For my ears a higher distance from this leading tone to the root of the tonica sounds familiar and consistent and as a result of my earlier mambership in chamber music ensembles and of discussions with(chamber) choir leaders I know a lot of musicians following the idea of "function intonation".

I believe that melodic hearing is a result of hear education and it can be changed.

Besides, regarding the attachment of the leading tone to the root of the following tonica: If you want to kiss a nice girl, is it more recommandable to hold firstly a slight distance or is it recommandable to crowd her? As to my experiences the first behaviour is more successfull. Unfortunately I am too old for actual tests.

I possess a nice assemblage of a certain musical piece (Haydn Symphony 103), recorded by different orchestras. The entrance of the wind players begins with nearly the same chord sequence, dominant to tonica (F-A-C-Eb to Bb-D-F). The tuning behavior of these different orchestras is different, too. Some of them tune the A high as leading tone, others deep, following its harmonic function. I will shorten them to the relevant clip and set them on our website, being available only for the readers of this article.

In this way you will be able to vote for the one or the other interpretation. But please understand, it requires some days. I will write again as soon as this will be done.

Hi to all,

as promised by my last mail I have selected a typical and subtle  tuning sequence for real orchestras. Haydn's Symphony 103, first movement, first entrance of the wind players. They begin with a dominant seventh chord: F-A-C-Eb, leading to the tonica Bb-D-F. The Flute plays the highest notes A - Bb.

The discussion was whether it would sound better to tune the upwards leading Note A "high" in order to creep into the root of the tonica: Bb - a tuning behavior which would destroy just intonation  - or whether this A should be tuned comperatively deep  in order to bring it near to just intonation.

I have carried together some recordings of real orchestras and have added four different examples by a virtual orchsetra, created by myself. These four examples presented in equal temperament and three different settings of Hermode Tuning.

You will find all examples by following this link:

www.hermode.com/html/hermode-tuning-examples_en.html

The fifth exampleon this site is the first movement of the affecting symphony and left of it you will find a hint:

"to draw a compare... click here"

After clicking onto this link a new window will open. There you will find all examples.

The virtual orchestra examples will open by clicking onto "TMP" or "HMT-TF(100) and so on.

Which tuning behavior of which original orchestra is in  consonance or at least very near to one of the virtual simulations? Listen - it is very interesting.

Comments?