@Errikos said:

 I will not log-in every 2 months to keep a hardware that I've paid for working,

So, worst case scenario!

Your license stick gets lost doesn´t matter how, but its gone so you have to buy all your license for the half-price again.
I think you´re a bigger player here in using the staff VSL offers so roundabout 5000,-€ up.
I don´t know if you can pay this out of your petty cash, but I think most users here including me don´t have that money in stock and would be pleased to use it in a different way if they have

And fate is sometimes unfair. What if, it happends again to you a short time later?!
Sure doubtful but not impossible.
That´s all because you´re to lazy to let the hardware check it in a period of time!?

I for myself bought a laptop this spring, a fast/expensive one for using it outside with VSL.
But I´ve stopped it, because of the really bad feeling I have, if I good this little tiny stick with me. How fast can it be lost in any way.
So, one big point for using VSL is gone.

I, for myself would like to buy more staff from VSL, quality is without no doubt, but I´m really thinking about to stop buying anymore, because of the risk that gets bigger with any product I buy more.

regards

Torsten

@Errikos said:

I keep telling you that VSL is not just insuring themselves against theft, but our investment in their products at the same time!

First, you're right in that I have spent quite a bit of money here. Don't you think I know that something could happen to my licences one day? Do you really think it is due to laziness that I'm against logging-in periodically to verify my stick? No. It is the principle of the thing. Since I have paid outright for the use of my software and hardware, I refuse to have my legitimacy confirmed every 2-3 months unless I'm upgrading. Don't you see where this could lead in the future? It could get to the point where you'd have to be permanently online, and connected to a company at all times in order for you to be allowed to work with software (licences too) and hardware that you have purchased outright. Don't think for a minute that if you agree to the Principle of an idea, it cannot be extended to its entelechy; read Aristotle.

Regarding your second post, it is your thought-process that is ridiculous if you can't see that the money you have spent here is well invested if-and-only-if nobody else can use the same products as you, unless he also has undergone the same expenditure to acquire them.

@Errikos said:

I can tell you what is not going to be acceptable to me: I will not log-in every 2 months to keep a hardware that I've paid for working,

this is ridiculous !

you connect your PC/MAC to do software update

If the checking is done in background there is no inconveignence

Then let it check me if and when I connect to do software update.

@Errikos said:

Then let it check me if and when I connect to do software update.

I'm not sure why it couldn't do exactly that, or at least something very similarly unobtrusive. It could be, for example, something like this:

- VSL requires online verification of the legitimacy of registered licenses every 2 months or so.The verification itself takes 30 seconds and an internet connection.

- When 2 months have gone by without online verification, a user is prompted with a message to verify the licenses sometime within the next week. It doesn't have to immediate, so you'll never be caught off-guard with an impending deadline while in the desert without an internet connection. If you're in the desert for longer than a week, you have more serious concerns than composing music.

- If a week goes by without online verification, the licenses are suspended until proper verification is received. Once verified, the licenses are restored.

- A user can perform the online verification at any time, thus extending the validity period for 2 months from that time. Therefore, if a user knows in advance that they don't want to be bothered for the next month, all they have to do is log in and validate their licenses, and they're good for the next 2 months.

While I admit I haven't given this much thought, I'm not sure that the above system would be a serious inconvenience. In my view, it would be a very small price to pay to relieve users of the burden and expense of having to insure their licenses. Moreover, it would effectively give VSL the ability to disable licenses on a stolen or lost dongle (after 2 months). Sure, a thief may get to use the licenses for free for 2 months, but under the present system, unless I am mistaken, a thief is able to use the licenses on a stolen dongle indefinitely.

I don't think the slippery slope argument applies here - there just isn't a logical pathway between what I'm advocating here (security of VSL's and our investments at minimal risk, expense, and inconvenience to both parties) and a situation where users need to be constantly logged in to a server in order to use the software. In any case, that situation certainly isn't what I'm for; I'm advocating something like what I stated above, no more and no less.

I don't think any the ideas of the previous posters are "ridiciulous" (except, perhaps, the very title of this thread - for all its flaws, I don't think there's anything unethical about VSL's policy here). I agree wholeheartedly that the current system is designed to protect VSL's products as well as our investments in them. I also think that the current system is less than perfect, with a disproportionate burden on the user. While it would also be, admittedly, less than ideal to have to verify one's licenses online every now and then, it seems to me to be less of an inconvenience than having to pay to insure the licenses.

I appreciate Errikos' proposal.

- I don't think VSL is currently behaving in an unethical way. Before purchasing my licenses, I was informed through the website that loss of the dongle = loss of the licenses on it = having to purchase the software again. And I can transfer my licenses from one dongle to another (I transferred everything from my Vienna key to my Steinberg Cubase key)

- I think VSL's offer to pay only 50% of the original price in case of loss or theft is quite correct (cfr. the Steinway piano analogy above).

- If there is proof of destruction of the dongle (for example: the house burns, with official attestion; the dongle physically breaks, and you send the pieces back to VSL), than I would propose VSL to consider granting new licenses for the price of the replaced hardware + reasonable handling expenses - VSL must be paid for their efforts

In the meantime: yes, I did take an insurance for my licenses (as part of the insurance of all my electronic equipment and all my software), and informed my insurance company that the value of the dongle is equal to the cost of the software licenses on it. For your info: I pay about 0.5% insurance premium, so it's not really a big issue.

And yes: if someone is stupid enough to loose his key, or unlucky enough to get robbed, that's a pity; but that's not a reason to expect that VSL, or Steinberg, or any other company, will bear the burden of it. Take your own responsibility, and do take an insurance.

So, mr. Delavagus, although I understand your frustration, I cannot join your opinion. 

And as far as I am concerned, the people of VSL I met already in the past years are really fine and honest people, and "demanding ransom" or behaving unethically is not what they are doing. But they do protect their business interests (and ours: do we want their products become twice as expensive, because they loose income from massive piracy? I guess no)

Kind greetings,

Robrecht H. Paternoster

@Popslaw said:

I'm not sure why it couldn't do exactly that, or at least something very similarly unobtrusive. It could be, for example, something like this:

- VSL requires online verification of the legitimacy of registered licenses every 2 months or so.The verification itself takes 30 seconds and an internet connection.

- When 2 months have gone by without online verification, a user is prompted with a message to verify the licenses sometime within the next week. It doesn't have to immediate, so you'll never be caught off-guard with an impending deadline while in the desert without an internet connection. If you're in the desert for longer than a week, you have more serious concerns than composing music.

- If a week goes by without online verification, the licenses are suspended until proper verification is received. Once verified, the licenses are restored.

- A user can perform the online verification at any time, thus extending the validity period for 2 months from that time. Therefore, if a user knows in advance that they don't want to be bothered for the next month, all they have to do is log in and validate their licenses, and they're good for the next 2 months.

Hello VSL

THIS IS THE SOLUTION

Another one will be a finger print reader, it's 34 $ !!! I am ready to buy one just to have peace !

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?client=safari&rls=en&q=fingerprint+reader&oe=UTF-8&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=3387544997990879383&sa=X&ei=xajkToHNIJC2hAeB2qG3Dg&ved=0CHAQ8wIwAg#ps-sellers

 Cyril, I'm not sticking my finger into one of those every couple of months. I'm very fussy about what slot I stick my fingers into. Actually, I'm very fussy about what slot I stick anything into. [:O]

DG

I did think about a fingerprint device for home use, I just didn't think it practical/inexpensive. I'd certainly go for that over internet verification (not that I like the idea). I am still violently opposed to the 2-3 month proposal, or any verification of any sort whatsoever if insurances are willing to financially cover the full restoration of licences (I haven't insured mine so I don't know). If they do, I would consider any additional verification requirement insulting and Big Brotherly. Just pay to insure your keys. Just factor that additional cost in the retail price of additional libraries/software when you buy them. 

Seriously, I don't care if a thief manages to work with one key's licenses for a decade, I'm sure he's not the next John Williams (if he is, let him do it), and he won't be able to upgrade anything. What does concern me is the potential unbridled copying of licences that would result in the unlimited proliferation of the products (as it happened with the 1st Edition), should VSL allow for any copying.

Seriously, is there anyone here that hasn't upgraded their software whenever VSL has released updates for it? That happens once, twice, three times a year? That ought to be enough!!!! Nothing more is required.

Again, pay the money and insure the contents!

@Errikos said:

I did think about a fingerprint device for home use, I just didn't think it practical/inexpensive. I'd certainly go for that over internet verification (not that I like the idea). I am still violently opposed to the 2-3 month proposal, or any verification of any sort whatsoever if insurances are willing to financially cover the full restoration of licences (I haven't insured mine so I don't know). 

My insurance is covering the price of the dongle but is refusing to cover the licenses. they do not cover imaterial thing, they say to me to take a juridical insurance to sue VSL as what is doing VSL is illegal in most of Europeean countries !

It is better to pay once 34$ than to pay a yearly insurance

@Errikos said:

I did think about a fingerprint device for home use, I just didn't think it practical/inexpensive. I'd certainly go for that over internet verification (not that I like the idea). I am still violently opposed to the 2-3 month proposal, or any verification of any sort whatsoever if insurances are willing to financially cover the full restoration of licences (I haven't insured mine so I don't know). 

My insurance is covering the price of the dongle but is refusing to cover the licenses. they do not cover imaterial thing, they say to me to take a juridical insurance to sue VSL as what is doing VSL is illegal in most of Europeean countries !

It is better to pay once 34$ than to pay a yearly insurance

1. Get a specialist insurer for your studio equipment
2. It doesn't really matter what is enshrined in French Law. It's European law that counts. Do you know what the law there is?

DG

@Cyril said:

My insurance is covering the price of the dongle but is refusing to cover the licenses. they do not cover imaterial thing, they say to me to take a juridical insurance to sue VSL as what is doing VSL is illegal in most of Europeean countries !

It is better to pay once 34$ than to pay a yearly insurance

1. Get a specialist insurer for your studio equipment
2. It doesn't really matter what is enshrined in French Law. It's European law that counts. Do you know what the law there is?

DG

1  ->>> Licences = software = imaterial ===> not insurable because you should be able to have a backup

2 ->>> Austrian's law = French law 

@Cyril said:

1  ->>> Licences = software = imaterial ===> not insurable because you should be able to have a backup

2 ->>> Austrian's law = French law 

I don't understand. DAWs used to need dongles in order to operate them (maybe some still do). One obviously could have 50 backups of the programs themselves as copies, but one needs the dongle to run them. How did people insure Logic 10 years ago? Surely the insurance company must understand that Licences ≠ Software, as clearly one could own thousands of copies of the software but not of the licence. The licence is only half immaterial (if at all), since it cannot be copied, only transferred.