My reason for "insisting" on a comprehensive notation editor is very simple, maybe I haven't expressed myself adequately so far... 95% of the time I compose in Sibelius. Most of the time I wouldn't even call what I do sketching. I write straight on a full score (depending on instrumentation), and work from there. Most trials and errors take place in Sibelius - including changes in orchestration, material, anything really - and of course all audio feedback takes place there as well. When I transfer my work into Logic, all composition/orchestration is already "finalized" (there will be some minor material or orchestrational tweaks, emphasis on "minor"). Basically, I need to use the DAW for all the engineering reasons in the world, but very few creative ones. I don't need the arpeggiator, I don't need the transformers (99% of the time), I don't need Ultrabeat, etc. I need the external libraries' sounds, the EXS, the timeline (there, I said it...), the automation, and the plug-ins. Whatever minor tweaks in the material itself can easily be performed inside the Piano-Roll. I have never used the DAW notation editor, I wouldn't know what for...

So, since all composition takes place in the notation editor, I need it sophisticated enough to score The Phantom Menace - not Inception, not TRON 2 - The Phantom Menace, to the point where all parts can be extracted and given to studio players for performance with every detail, straight from my printer; conductor's score too. I don't care for Sibelius' 'Ideas' feature, or its education packages (although I have used them occasionally for some of  my private tuition), and generally any of its beginner-features or plug-ins (not that they shouldn't be there, just that I don't need them). I do need however the majority of its notational and layout capabilities. I have to be able to follow my complicated score like I follow a Boosey edition - if not better, and as I compose, I don't want the hassle of having to constantly stop thinking music and try to move everything into place, etc. And I do want the easy access, the clever palettes; basically everything that makes me compose as hassle-free as possible, and with the best audio feedback possible. Since I work on the page from scratch, for the life of me I can't understand how the standard DAW notation editor (say Logic's) would be of any use to me - and no one tells me!

P.S.: I was always peripherally interested in Linux (since my days of learning Unix at university), even this OpenOctave thing they've done with the VSL. However, one look at this Rosegarden notation jpg. tells me that one just couldn't do The Phantom Menace with it (sadly). Be that as it may, I do like to know what's happening with all platforms, thanks for the link.

Errikos, that cleared up a great deal for me. I agree with your first paragraph almost entirely. The only reason I brought up the DAW notation in Rosegarden was that I thought it might address some issues. After reading that paragraph and realizing how much I agree with it, I would be plenty happy with two things taking place.

1) VSL having far better integration into Sibelius, as discussed.

2) A VSL-DAW (notation or not) - Although, the first one would be more important to me in the end, but I'd still want both.

@Errikos said:

for the life of me I can't understand how the standard DAW notation editor (say Logic's) would be of any use to me - and no one tells me!

I only want this as a means of hybrid'ing notation with good performance, like what notion attempted. If I could simply use Sibelius will complete and automatic integration and get decent playback results... then I'm satisfied, all DAW discussion would end for me at that point. After that, I'd simply export the midi into the DAW for fine tuning the performance if neccesary.

Having a full-featured Sibelius inside a daw, with notation and performance kept separate, would accomplish the same thing to me. Where I could draw things in sibelius, and fine-tune the performance in the piano roll. I'm basically wanting notion. The only reason I don't use notion now is that it has only 4 midi channels, a ridiculous hinderance for big templates. Now that Notion is dead, what other option do I have? This is why I would like either Pro-tools to add more of Sibelius in it's editor, or for VSL to have a notation editor, or Sibelius to have full integration with VSL, etc. But like I said, in the end I could sacrifice all my views posted here if I could have a more automatic Sibelius integration with decent playback results. (I still feel this thread is valid. Like I said, A VSL-DAW could offer more integration than Cubase, so I'd still want such a thing to happen. I'd simply use Sibelius, then use VE instead of Cubase.

I have never even heard of OpenOctave until now... looks VERY cool! I'll have to look into it. Thanks!!

-Sean

Errikos, totally off topic, but the Sibelius Ideas thing is very handy, when you have unorthodox (according to Sibelius) rhythmic notation that appears at various times in the piece. I find that if I have a motif or fragment (that I've spent time re-beaming and putting articulations to) that is likely to appear at various times in the music, storing it in Ideas is much quicker than searching the score to be able to copy and paste. Obviously it is much quicker to re-pitch this Idea than create it from scratch.

DG

Thanks Daryl, I had never considered that. I always looked askance at that feature, thinking "I have my own ideas thank you..."

Sean, let me know if you get anything interesting through Linux.

@Errikos said:

Thanks Daryl, I had never considered that. I always looked askance at that feature, thinking "I have my own ideas thank you..."

Sean, let me know if you get anything interesting through Linux.

I will, I probably won't do this for a week or two cause my schedule is about to get flipped upsidown then lit on fire, lol, but I'll post if I find anything useful and relevant to this discussion. The OpenOctave thing was cool, but there were a few issues I had with it. It looks fairly complicated to set up. I'll figure out anything if I want it enough, but the time doesn't seem worth it so far. The only thing his work seemed to impress me with is some of the editing features Cubase lacks, and the fact that he seems more interested in developing it for VSL than others, which could obviously have great potential. I'll keep my eye on it. So far, Rosegarden (after more Google-ing than I'd care to admit) seems to be the only viable linux notation/daw package. LMMS was the only other DAW 'featured' enough to be worth the time, but without notation, so I'll primarily be comparing those two in features, ease of use, midi setup, and stuff that will eventually serve VSL, as I see it anyway.

Have you looked at Musescore? I just tried it and it seems fairly well built for a notation program. It's definately not as powerful as Sibelius in some regards, but it is clean, runs very smooth (something Sibelius hasn't quite accomplished, though I realise why and don't blame them), and is feature-filled enough to that seems a viable option for most every-day notation needs, and them some. It certainly fails in midi though, in every way. But when you made the suggestion that VSL should buy a notation software none really came to mind that I thought was viable. Musescore is opensource, but I wonder if VSL could use that source to make a VSL version that would only have changes in midi or VSL-related things... it's a thought anyway. The only problem I'd see would be that it's open source and VSL obviously isn't in anything. I don't imagine they could charge for it. Maybe they could for a VSL-version...? I don't know how that could work. But it seems a good enough editor for what you'd require, am I right in that or no? I figured something like this (if plausible) could save VSL most of the development and programming time necessary for a notation editor in this VSL-DAW. The hard work would be done. If not in a DAW, it could still be a stand-alone. Any thoughts?

And fyi, I LOVE the 'ideas' feature... because 1- DG's reason and 2- it's like a clipboard. Sometimes I'll come up with something that's amazing, but not for this peice... so it serves that purpose too. But I do agree, the second I saw the 'given' ideas I reacted the same way.

-Sean

Hello,

Pertaining to what have been discussed, I would like to stablish a distinction between composition and publishing. My view of composing in notation precludes any form of layout or print-oriented editing, for instance, in Sibelius I work only in Panorama and I really don't care if an item is marked red because it cannot fit the layout ditribution.

Making each part clear and print friendly, I regard as a separate step. In fact, in Sibelius, I find the concrete world of printing to get often in the way of the abstract world of composition. Taking as an example the Phantom Menace, composing the parts using notation symbols is all that is needed, having the symbols be accurately interpreted and the sounds correctly played back to the composer. Then we could always export everything as MusicXML and do all the layout tweaking in another platform.

There's a large distinction between audio and desktop publishing and I believe the latter is very distant from what VSL currently provides, is a different world and technology. For my needs, this software would only require:

1. Integration between notation symbols and VSL playback

2. Easy way of controlling midi, akin to what happens in a DAW CC lane.

3. MusicXML import and export.

On another topic, I would like to add that I've been trying MusicXML between Sibelius and Notion. I've been doing some tests, composing in Notion and then exporting everything to Sibelius for printing and I'm very happy with the results, at least for small ensembles, I'm yet to try a full orchestral score.

iscorefilm, you've said that Notion only supports 4 midi channel, but that is not accurate. Notion supports only 4 midi channels for "general" use, but you can load as many instances of VSTs as you want, an example: you could load 8 VE instances with 16 channels each.

@Another User said:

iscorefilm, you've said that Notion only supports 4 midi channel, but that is not accurate. Notion supports only 4 midi channels for "general" use, but you can load as many instances of VSTs as you want, an example: you could load 8 VE instances with 16 channels each.

Okay, I thought that might have been the case. I just reinstalled notion3 SLE and today was planning on setting up a score template to my liking. I'll have to give that another go then.

-Sean

@Tralen said:

2. Easy way of controlling midi, akin to what happens in a DAW CC lane.

@Tralen--This to me is the current achillies heel of the current DAW/Notation software. It falls just at the dividing line between DAW and Notation package. The Notation packages don't have enough editing control over velocity, expression and crossfade and the DAWs don't allow easy CC data thining or copying. Neither package really takes into account the fine tuning which must be done here to make a mockup as realistic as possible.

@Tralen said:

2. Easy way of controlling midi, akin to what happens in a DAW CC lane.

@Tralen--This to me is the current achilies heel of the current DAW/Notation software. It falls just at the dividing line between DAW and Notation package. The Notation packages don't have enough editing control over velocity, expression and crossfade and the DAWs don't allow easy CC data thining or copying. Neither package really takes into account the fine tuning which must be done here to make a mockup as realistic as possible.

I think it's very easy to become institutionalized with the current software paradigm. Piano-roll editing didn't even exist 100 years ago, while notation did. 100 years from now, something else may even exist. I'm not saying we should abandon what we have, but that piano-roll editing clearly lacks the versatility of notation and notation clearly lacks either the ability or the level of ease in digital fine-tuning that automation lanes give us. The ability to serve both ends is with any doubt a neccesary goal, maybe not for everyone, but for how notation and playback ultimately should work to best serve users. If notation could do everything a piano-roll w/automation offers with ease, I wouldn't even see a need for piano-roll editing.

Your 'neither package' bit hits this right on the head! That's why I think a VSL-DAW is the best route to go. If VSL made it, it would automatically work with everything VSL (that alone is worth it), but to have a midi/notation/automation/piano-roll editor (or whatever would be a functional tool in that area) would make it all the more worth the effort.

I've been reading into this very issue on other forums for the past couple days and I've found a common pattern. 1/2 the people want exactly what is mentioned here, a clean notation editor that works with our samples automatically and ultimately serves as a composition tool (something no notation editor has accomplished in light of playback capabilities). The other 1/2 say 'no, I want midi because notation has never served DAW's very well, no one uses it'. The problem here is that most DAW notation editors hardly qualify as even being called notation. You can't say 'it has a staff and a clef, so it's good enough'. A real notation editor should at least have the common notation sybmols, lines, etc. we all know and use, and the computer should simply play that back to us. This would serve notation users very well. Then the DAW problem. - A VSL-tailored DAW would solve many issues VSL users face and ultimately would save people a lot of time and effort. If VSL made a DAW, they'd be insane to not include some sort of notation involved. Other sample companies? Fine... VSL? The most orchestral-focused library in the market? VSL makes VE DAW and includes no notation editor? It would be counter-intuitive in many ways.

Essentially I've just said that we would benefit from a VSL-DAW and if made then notation would be expected and probably demanded in the end. Who better to balance notation / automation / piano-roll editing capatilibies than the same people who make the samples that those editors will be performing?

-Sean

Another feature idea [I]

So I mentioned earlier (either in this thread or 'Sib7') that based on the tempo in the VSL-DAW, the time-stretch tool could be made to automatically create the sample based on a certain articulation (I can't remember which one I used).

But this could apply to glissandi's very well. Whether time-stretched, or if VSL made 10 different length glissandi patches (maybe still a little time-stretching even then)... then I can notate a glissandi line in this VSL-DAW notation editor and imagine dragging the line to change the slope The longer the line is diagonally, VSL would just use a longer glissandi patch, or time stretch the closest one available.

That idea might seem crazy or stupid to people, I get that. I'm just saying that 1- it has merit, and 2- the idea in general would be best served in a VSL-made DAW / Notation package. Am I crazy? I think it's great! (and not just glissandi's, I just mean to show another example of how VSL-tailored could serve people)

-Sean

@Tralen said:

2. Easy way of controlling midi, akin to what happens in a DAW CC lane.

@Tralen--This to me is the current achillies heel of the current DAW/Notation software. It falls just at the dividing line between DAW and Notation package. The Notation packages don't have enough editing control over velocity, expression and crossfade and the DAWs don't allow easy CC data thining or copying. Neither package really takes into account the fine tuning which must be done here to make a mockup as realistic as possible.

There is one basic difference between notation software and a sequencer. With notation software the MIDI information is derived from the notation, but with a sequencer the notation is derived from the MIDI information. Therefore notation software is not linear, which makes things like automation lanes well nigh impossible to implement (as I understand it).

DG

I think the culprit in this whole discussion is the expectation that DAWs (Piano Roll) are designed for composition. Somehow in the circles of digital composition, I often see people regarding this as a given. Well, they are not, they are designed primarily to handle audio files, and to "interact" with VSTs. Composition itself, happens trough the preference of the composer, which more often than not, includes experimentation through a midi-controller. This midi-controller is more aptly recorded in DAWs, and so I believe here is where that expectation starts.

If we were to accept that the Piano Roll is the main instrument of composition, becomes easy to delegate the role of notation software to an aftertought, to print the score for live performance. The point I make, and that several posters made here, is that this is not the case, the Piano Roll is a necessity we adhere to, only because we are unable to achieve the same results within our notation packages. And we are unable to achieve this because of a third part of the digital music pipeline: performance.

So, splitting the composition process into three segments, we have: composition, performance, publishing. The problem we face is simply that neither DAW or Notation Software covers the three segments adequately, precisely because they are not designed to do so. Notation Softwares are forcefully locked into the latter segment, with glimpses of the first, without ever touching the second. What is lacking is the acknowledgement that the second segment, "performance", is as crucial for "composition" as the ability to input notes itself, and much more important than "publishing", for certain. And that "composition", at least for me and others here, is more easily achieved through traditional notation than piano rolls.

Summing all up: in digital orchestral composition, there should be no distinction between the first two segments, composition and performance. And honestly, the only way I can see this division being removed is if a quality provider of "performance" (an orchestral library such as VSL) takes the whole of providing "composition" as well. There are two reasons for this: First, the library holds all the minutiae of how the samples work and how to make them sound good without hassle; Second, the big assumption I make that composition and performance must be united, only stands when we think about orchestral composition, which I doubt is the primary market for either DAWs or Notation Softwares, but it certainly is for a provider of orchestral samples.

Tralen! Where have you been all my life? lol

You have just provided a perfect summation of the problem. I can't add to it. 'I got nothin!' [:D]

-Sean

What makes performance tweaking difficult in a notation package is the fact that dictionary translations (in the current state  of the art) are static. For example, the dictionary may hold a rule that sfz may may boost the expression by 10 and the xfade by 5. If you wanted a bit more edge on the voice you would have to go edit the xfade value. After this edit, how would the change be reflected in the Notation since the sfz is no longer "standard"? And how would you be able to switch between a standard and a non-standard interpretation of sfz? I believe a better Notation/DAW solves this problem.

I'm glad people have taken this seriously and have started talking about specific advantages and hurdles towards that goal. However, some are saying that you can't get a proper mock-up through a notation editor alone (as they are at this time). Who said you could? I never said I wanted to mix The Phantom Menace on Sibelius or similar. I too will import it into the proposed VSL DAW in order to tweak. All I want is a much more faithful audio feedback than the one I'm currently getting from Sibelius or Notion. If VSL finds it feasible and worthwhile to develop an integrated notator for their platform that's great; that in fact would be a bonus on top of my expectations. All I asked for was a VSL DAW which I felt was closer to the company's achievements thus far. If they'd want to go all the way, so much the better. However, I don't work on Panorama in Sibelius, I tried it and didn't like it. I actually want to look at the closest possible approximation of the published page when I work; that's me, everyone's different. But to reiterate, who cares if the audio feedback won't be perfect on the proposed VSL notator? At least it would be 10 times better than what we're getting now.

@Errikos said:

who cares if the audio feedback won't be perfect on the proposed VSL notator? At least it would be 10 times better than what we're getting now.

I agree that we'd at least get a better result in notation, which would alone be a tremendous improvement. However, I do think it is entirely possible to have the same level of flexibility in notation as you can in a piano-roll / automation-lane editor. You simply add tools in notation that let you accomplish the same thing, like Notion does. I can actually think of several ways that would have been more effective and easier to get results- than how Notion even accomplished this. Either way, any notation performance improvements are welcome. With how bad of a playback experience we currently get with notation, I'd even say it's neccesary.

In the end, I can't see a valid argument against the idea of wanting the same company to provide the editor as who makes the sound. To me that's a fairly obvious advantage over what we currently have.

-Sean

Errikos is right on the point with this discussion: we are not striving for utopia, we are striving for an improvement, a better relationship between what the composer inputs on the score and the samples available. I speak for myself, of course, but I can assume such was the feelings of several VSL users with the release of Sibelius 7. There was no improvement to integration of VSTs, and I dare to say, no improvements AT ALL.

Some of my burden with the available notation software is precisely the focus which is placed on the publishing technology, I believe this is part of the expectation we face, that the composition must be brought from elsewhere (DAW). I would be happy with an abstract notation editor, where only the composition is in focus, with absolutely no need for page layouts, but I understand some people are more comfortable having the layout in place, which I believe is more similar to the natural notation on paper.

If VSL would take the helm and develop a notation software based on its libraries, of course, the result would be spectacular. If this is not possible, I can only hope another company will take the task of developing notation FOR orchestral samples, or that at least, the available notation packages allow the user to interact more friendly with the midi-data.

The problem with notation playback as it is now, is the extra step that midi information takes to access a sample. As said before in this thread, in DAWs the user communicates the midi data directly with the VST, while in Notation the user places symbols, which in turn are converted to midi-data and then reach the VST. These symbols, I believe, are the biggest difference between Notation composers and DAW composers. DAW composers want to input data, numbers or graphs, which will affect the sounds being played. Notation composers want to input Symbols and expect them to generate the data accurately.

Notion advanced this a little bit, allowing the user to have a set of interpretation rules per document, per score, which means for a particular performance, you can adjust your rule files without interfering with all rules for the VST, which is what a soundset does. Still, this is far from being able to adjust one specific instance of a symbol in the score, like dshertz said, what's the difference between a sfz and an altered sfz? I believe this is similar to what Sibelius Properties window achieve.

In my imagination, the easiest way to provide better performance for notation would be adding a control lane below each staff, collapsable of course. Or better yet, a secondary type of notation that could send changes for the dictionary itself and not to the VST. Using the sfz example from above, let's say the dictionary has the sfz as an +10 increase in velocity. You could apply an extra symbol to the staff, not a number or a graphic, but a different symbol, that extra type of notation specifically for adjusting notation playback itself, maybe on different collor. These would not print or affect the layout of the score, but would affect playback, they would mimic specific decisions the live performer would have made.

Exploring this idea a little further, in the same example above, let's say the composer wants to lessen the sfz a bit, maybe by -2. He adds the -2 Velocity symbol, or maybe, even add it twice. For creating a drag in tempo, for instance, instead of adding a sequence of tempo changes to replace an abstract text instruction, he could add an inverted tempo hairpin, that drags the tempo precisely where he wants, just like a crescendo, he only places the starting tempo and the ending one.

Thus he achieves most actions through a type of notation, which saves the composer the hassle of dealing with yet another type of information: midi. Of course this only matters if the symbols are preconfigured, designed to take the place of every action that is commonly used in midi finetuning. The point is, every change to the performance is done through notation, even if of a different kind.

Pertaining to what Errikos said, and if we take notation off the equation, this VSL DAW becomes much more feasible. If composition is done elsewhere, let's say in Sibelius, or another notation package, and the user does not expect accurate playback from this package, he could then import the file to VSL DAW, in a manner that the notation (would have to be MusicXML) is automatically converted to the appropriate midi-data.

I for one, have gave up producing mock-ups for one reason. I can not put myself into the burden of setting up a DAW and then effectively recreating the score I already composed. To me this absolutey kills the joy of composition, and only recently I decided to try it again. If the DAW was already preconfigured to work with the VST I use (VSL in this case), half of the work would be already done, creating a track FOR an Oboe, would be akin to creating a staff in Sibelius for the Oboe of Sound Essentials, no setup required.

The other half of the work, if we come from notation, is getting notation symbols to become midi lanes, and I believe that can be achieved even without the VSL DAW, just by having an MusicXML to Midi translator which allows you to set how each articulation should be translated to midi.

Anyway, I agree, that without notation, the DAW becomes more closer to reality.

Although I would love to have better solutions to current DAW / Notation choices.  I'm not sure how this will work out, from the developers point of view.  At least for now, there are some pretty diverse methods put forth by sample companies regarding how they work.  Unless the idea is to have a VSL only DAW/Notator (seemingly risky)  then the hurdle of finding solutions toward commonality between leading sample instrument platforms would seem no small task. It may not be good timing, yet. (I'm mainly referring to the notation side)  

@ddunn said:

It may not be good timing, yet. (I'm mainly referring to the notation side)

I can agree with that. Good timing? Maybe not, I don't know. But do I think that Notation isn't offering what VSL users could be using? Absolutely. Do I think notation is important yes? Notation and DAW editors should get equal consideration imo. Many people use DAW's only because of notation offerings being sub-par with playback. More people come into this knowing notation than DAW's and many users turn away from this because they don't want to learn DAW's. Discounting the need for better notation integration would be flawed. Most users here haven't done that, but a few have stated that it is less likely to happen.

Personally, I don't care for that argument. If it's less likely, let VSL decide that... but whether it should happen, or whether users want it... that's the feedback we should be providing. If people say 'yeah but it will never happen', that is the very mentality that makes it never happen. No offense to anyone. [;)]

-Sean