Hi, with the recent release of Sibelius 7, I've came to remember one decision I made a long time ago of eventually removing myself from the clutches of Avid. The only alternative I can see is Notion, but while reading the forums I've found the users are complaining about it being abandoned by the development team. So, I would like to ask the Notion and VSL users a couple of things. Did you suceeded in integrating your non-SE VSL libraries into Notion? Is there a .prules file (Notion soundset) for VSL, either private or released by VSL? Anyone knows about the current state of Notion, is there any plans of further integrating it with VSL? Thanks!
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Notion and VSL
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Hey, Andi, thanks for the information! I suceeded in creating custom rules for notion and I'm using my VSL Download Instruments quite nicely. I'm really impressed with the results! But I'm having a problem with the trills, maybe someone more experienced can help. I only managed to make Notion trigger the patches for whole and half trills, but I'm unable to use the command to make Notion actually play the trill (note by note) to take advantage of the performance trill patches. I know there is a command for this, but I can't figure out how to use it.
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I managed to make Notion perform the trill. The trick was to separate the code from the keyswitch code to select the patch. Also, Notion did not allow me to set conditions for the trill, I think that is hardcoded. I had to set a different condition for it to not trigger the "played trill" and instead use the pre-recorded trills I have for the standard libraries, I'm still figuring out how to use another ariculation (hidden) for this purpose. I want to paste the code here, but for some reason I always lose all formatting when I post here at VSL forums. Anyway, here it is:
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Ok, it didn't post the code. I found the profile option for "Enhanced" posting, will try again.
Here is the Notion code:
<rule name="played trill">
<trill pitches="1" time="0.1" delay="0.08" />
</rule>The name is optional. It should be kept without conditions, otherwise it won't work. The functions are:
trill pitches= I assume it should allow you to set how much tones to trill, but it does not work
time= I assume how many times to divide the note, I'm still playing with it
delay= time before the note begins to trill, again, didn't work as expected, but some variation can be heard.
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I found a way to setup my own presets for notion and my templates, as I customize everything. I don't use any VSL presets.
However, I ran into a problem with how many midi ports Notion supports. I need more!
I really thought notion had potential, I wish they had kept going with it. (Someone could buy them? Like perhaps a sample library? cough cough) [8]
-Sean
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Hello,
I am very disappointed with Sibelius 7, which adopts a strange direction and away from qualified specialists. Its interface is childish (they are prisoners of their poor design and their obsession with Microsoft ... oh yes), and serious defects are not resolved, as the bad keypad, his dictionary of execution in disorder and his inability to produce 24-bit audio, while the professional libraries are 24 bits. In fact, Sibelius is directed towards learning, schools and the public family while away from the studios and composers. The proximity of Pro-Tools, Avid, seemed to indicate something else, but no. I had heated exchanges with the people of Sibelius on their forum and I think Sibelius will never be the same. So, while using version 6.2, still good, I looked elsewhere. I do not like Finale, not easy to tame, with a bad interface, but I found NOTION 3 (in Demo). Notion 3 is oriented to the composition and playback, as a real working tools for the composer, not as a software layout and writing scores. It completely changes the approach. The design is clear and profesional, as the products of VSL. Notion 3 I think is the future. However, the site of Notion lot of talk about VSL, but the Notion site speaks little VSL. I think, for example, the solo strings bundle (I use) are not supported. It would be good, I think that VSL approaches Notion more if possible. Can we know what VSL provides in this area? VSL users on this forum, they advised the transition to Notion 3, or should we wait a little longer ?Forgive my bad English...
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I agree 100% with you about Finale.
Does the ribbon solve everything? Absolutely not. The keypad is horrible. They coule have easily kept the same keyboard shortcuts and implemented either a ribbon section for inputting notes (like notion has) or something similar. They could have even done something else. They could have even let users choose between the ribbon, keypad, or other in the 'user preferences'. Any improvement would have been good. The ribbon is only meant to solve one specific thing in programming, and it does that very well. AVID's problem is that 1- the ribbon is a VERY easy thing to implement, so the fact that it is their primary 'new feature' is unacceptable. 2- while the ribbon solves many problems, they simply took no time to address some of the major problems in Sibelius, as you mentioned (keypad, etc.)
[quote=CLAUDE MARC BOURGET]Notion 3 I think is the future.Yes and No. I agree in that what notion3 does, that no one else attempted, is the right way. It is good and solves many issues. However, you may not know this but notion has become a secondary program now. They have decided to slow development on notion, in favor of the ipad app. This is the worst news I could have heard. No more notion? It's horrible! We finally got a good thing (although it still needed more work, like notion4 or notion 5) but now that may never happen. Horrible!
[quote=CLAUDE MARC BOURGET]I created a thread under 'Vienna Instruments and Ensemble' titled "VSL DAW anyone?" Where several people are debating whether VSL should create a DAW, as Vienna Ensemble is already 1/2 of a DAW already. And the idea of VSL creating some sort of notation editor in that DAW, or a standlone notation editor- we have talked about that. If VSL made a notion program there are a lot of potential benefits as they could integrate playback very automatically, saving users a lot of time. I even list examples of how. The thread is more DAW focused than notation, but you may find it interesting.
No worries about your English. I know people who natively speak English who make less sense than yourself. [;)]
-Sean
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Hi Sean,
The idea of the ribbon is not bad, but its realization, yes. Any interface Sibelius is a mess in terms of graphics. The keypad has a style, mix another, ribbon on another, the left column, under Files, another, and so on. No unity. It's very distracting to the mind. If we add the disparate colors, like a Christmas tree (instead of towards a calmer monochrome), which attracts the eye more than the score, and more ridiculous icons as the lightning, the funnel or the head conducting grotesque is catastrophic. The design of Sibelius 7 is a mixture tasteless flavor. Look at the menus at Adobe, and even on Pro-Tools. Look at the beauty of VSL. Notion 3 is also very successful in this regard. With Sibelius 7, it's like every day I go to my work in an office mauve, with silly drawings on the walls and an ill-digested blend of styles. But Sean, I talked a lot about the Sibelius Forum, and I did not want to repeat the route. However, I am disappointed in the issue of Notion 3. I thought it represented the future. VSL should probably buy it because there's still a lot of work done, right? You think it works less well than the Sibelius Playback? I remain so with Sibelius 6.2.
Thank you for your detailed response.
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I also tried Notion (SLE) and notationally I wasn't happy, although I didn't give the program enough time to impress me. Yes, it did play VSL sounds, but buggy there too. So although I do have the program, I still do my work on Sibelius 6.2, grudgingly accepting the GPO4 playback (I never had much luck with setting up successfully VSL within Sibelius either). I dislike Sibelius 7's GUI, as anything else eating room from the vertical page is annoying, especially when it is visually so busy as well. I know one can move everything to the right but then you lose space that way... I don't doubt the functionality, but I'd have been a lot happier if people developed programs on Macintosh first and then translate into Windows or whatever (yes, I know, I know...).
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[quote=CLAUDE MARC BOURGET]
I realized from your Sibelius 7 comment that you may not want to start a long discussion here...lol so don't feel the need to reply to this.
I agree! Unity is a big problem in Sibelius. Playback configuration is in one place. Midi inputs are elsewhere, under preferences. Nothing is where it should be. It's disorganized. 1- I doubt it will happen, but if VSL bought notion, I'd be very happy. 2- Notion playback is definately better than Sibelius playback, I probably didn't word it very well. I like Sibleius more in most ways, except for specific GUI problems and serious disorganization- but playback in Sibelius is horrible.
-Sean
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For my part, Errikos, VSL works well with Sibelius 6.2. After adjustments in Sibelius (16 bit), I enter the midi file into Pro-Tools and I adjust (24-bit). I felt that Notion3 (you tried the version 3?) Had a little this dual function score and DAW. I wish someone could tell me what is wrong with Notion3. Not feelings, but specific details. People sent me Notion of presets to quickly VSL Cube. I have to see if it's ok with my bundle solo strings. As for GPO, I have never heard anything good from this side. I also Xsample Estwest and platinum, but I am happy just with VSL, its seriousness, its quality and more classical direction.
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Sean,
1.Thank you for your understanding.
2, It's important what you say. Thank you. Now, even though my music is played by the instrumentalists, I want to do mixes with real piano and virtual instruments. Not demos, but as the final results. There is always a place for musicians, but there is also a place for this new approach. For this, the playback is very important. But we must spend much time, probably as much time as a musician on his instrument. I'm not ready yet, but with VSL, I approach. Few months ....
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I have ask Notion a song that uses there "Full orchestra using 3 VE" ...... the answer is : we dont have !!! !
How can you have "full orchestra using 3 VE" setups if you do not have try it with a "full orchestra" song ?
I agree it will be great that either VSL talk to APPLE to interface the score of Logic with the articulation changes of VSL, either VSL wrote there own DAW.
The cheapest and the fastest will be to interface the score of Logic ! but it is many year that users are asking for it, but Apple Logic's team only develop feature that users don't need !!!!!
Best
Cyril
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The cheapest and the fastest will be to interface the score of Logic
Logic? I can't understand that at all. For VSL to address the needs of most users, they should integrate it with something neither Apple or Windows exclusive. Better integration with Sibelius would make a lot more sense than with Logic. Don't get me wrong, we're probably on the same page with what we want in the end, regarding notation integration with VSL... I just don't think Logic is the proper route.
Either VSL should work on integration with the most used notation software (Sibelius), the most sample-compatible notation software (Notion) or create their own. Those are the only notation advances that VSL should focus on, imo anyway.
-Sean
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Hi Sean
The problem is the "Engine", looks that Notion engine is quite bad, I have heard it is mono cpu (to check) it is sluggish if you have large score
I have gave a score to Notion (from the new world of Anton Dvorak) they say to use it I should cut it into pieces !!!
I dont know about Sibelius engine !
The "engine" of Logic does not have those problems and it is also a full recording program. So it should be simple to add articulation support to Logic.
To re-write a Logic equivalent that fully supports VSL will take years of programming
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Hello!
I've been quite successful in developing a personal ruleset for notion, at least I managed to achieve all articulation changes I needed. Notion has a sheer advantage of Sibelius in handling its ruleset, because it can store a ruleset per document, or even have a set of documents share a single ruleset and be uploaded with it.
All you need to do is create a folder called Rules in the same folder with your document (or documents). Notion will reference this file before referencing its default files. One of the first things declared in the ruleset is to which VST it should apply, so it won't mess with other rulesets that may be in place. For instance, as I still don't own all VSL instruments that I would like, I use Miroslav as a replacement, with the rules being VST dedicated, I can fiddle with my VSL rules as much as I want without messing the rules for Miroslav, which, by the way, are quite decent from default. This dedicated ajdustment is not possible with Sibelius dictionary. For instance I can say that if Miroslav is the VST it should play sforzandos by increasing the velocity by 10, but if the VST is VSL it should look for the sforzando patch instead, in Sibelius is either one or the other.
Making my VSL presets consistently I also managed to have a good response from Notion for all instruments I have, so, it doesn't matter which VSL instrument I load, the rules are applied equally, so the articulations work. It should work with all instruments, but I cannot do anything more advanced as I don't own very much from VSL, only brass libraries. I'm afraid the complexity would rise if the ruleset had to deal with percussion.
Notion website has a set of videos explaining custom rules, I followed it and managed to build my own, articulation by articulation, copying and pasting the instructions from the provided pdf. I don't think I should share the ruleset, as it's very specific and quirky, I think you would be better off building your own or actually improving from the VSL SE ruleset, which already handles percussion. Still, I plan to improve my own ruleset after I actually BUY Notion, all this experimentation I was doing happened while I was demoing it, and sadly the demo expired!
About handling heavy loads, I found that Notion is a crashfest when handling Vienna Instruments instances. At first, when I was doing simple tests with few articulations, I decided to use VI directly because it's simpler, each staff is linked to an instance. With my VSL brass section in place (10 staffs), Notion would crash everytime I attempted to change anything in VI. Using Vienna Ensemble through VST instruments, which creates a new staff which you have to manually create other staffs for each channel, this problem went away, using VE I did not have a single crash. Miroslav on the other hand, would also crash when I had 15 or more instances, but I assume this problem would go away if I had VE PRO and I could load Miroslav in it. The computer I was using is an i5 with 16gb RAM, which is not stellar but should fare better than that.
The problem is, I was away for a week and didn't work on my Notion projects again before the demo expired and I didn't manage to test a score that was, besides heavy in the VST department, also several pages long. I believe the problems would reappear.
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Tralen, I lucked out big-time as I got it for free from Notion during their promo period. Sadly, I haven't utilized it very well but for one drawback.
I want to load things MY WAY! lol I am going to create rules as I have designed a from the scratch template, keyswitches, humanize, and anything else you can imagine, all in VE. With only 4 midi ch's in Notion3 I have to save things in sections to create a notion template... then I'll have to create my custom notion setup how you referenced. I am embarking on that very task tomorrow. :(
However, with that in mind... I'm concerned. You said it is a crashfest with VI, but that you will use VI directly because it's simpler...? I'm lost. Did you mean VE one of those times? Should I do VE or VI? I want my own custom instruments in the end as I want to create one for Fanfare trumpets, etc.
-Sean
